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Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:26 am Post subject: Temps/Sex
Does Temperature determine sex in tegus? if so which for males and for females?
i've tried to ask Bert about it, but he doesn't have a clue, so i'm asking to you guys!!
i think he means temperature in incubation. bert discovered this with his australian water dragons. i have yet to hear of any discoveries about tegus. and bert would be the one who knows if anyone
andy_rot is talking about TSD (temperature sex determination) vs. GSD (genetic sex determination). Tegus do NOT have TSD, they have GSD. However, there can be environmental influence on the developing embryo that can promote sexual development in one direction over the other.
Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 972269 Location: Central Maine
Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 9:40 am Post subject:
Have there been tests to determine this?
Rick
tupinambis wrote:
andy_rot is talking about TSD (temperature sex determination) vs. GSD (genetic sex determination). Tegus do NOT have TSD, they have GSD. However, there can be environmental influence on the developing embryo that can promote sexual development in one direction over the other.
Ya know, Rick, for someone who assigns species identification at whim, you sure want me to back up everything I say with tests.
As a matter of fact, though, it has been looked into. Members of Teiidae follow the XY heterogamety strategy as do you and I. Try looking up:
Janzen, F.J., and G.L. Paukstis, 1991. Environmental sex determination in reptiles: Ecology, evolution, and experimental design. Quarterly Review of Biology 66: 149-179.
Viets, B.E., M.A. Ewert, L.G. Talent and C.E. Nelson, 1994. Sex-determining mechanisms in squamate reptiles. Journal of Experimental Zoology 270: 45-56.
Furthermore, considering how popular and easy these animals are to breed, if there was a form of TSD expressed in them, it would certainly have been discovered by now.
Joined: Oct 20, 2005 Posts: 270 Location: Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject:
Sort of unrelated.. but at what age would you be able to visually sex a tegu (i.e. by looking at the vent) _________________ Visit www.reptileontario.com
- Scott
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And a
Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 972269 Location: Central Maine
Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:54 pm Post subject:
tupinambis wrote:
As a matter of fact, though, it has been looked into. Members of Teiidae follow the XY heterogamety strategy as do you and I. Try looking up:
Janzen, F.J., and G.L. Paukstis, 1991. Environmental sex determination in reptiles: Ecology, evolution, and experimental design. Quarterly Review of Biology 66: 149-179.
Viets, B.E., M.A. Ewert, L.G. Talent and C.E. Nelson, 1994. Sex-determining mechanisms in squamate reptiles. Journal of Experimental Zoology 270: 45-56.
I have come to be taught that I should ask for proof and not just take someones word for these things, ya know.
I'll look up those articles. It was not a serious concern for me, but since the topic was brought up I figured I'd speak up. Thanks for the research direction.
Quote:
Furthermore, considering how popular and easy these animals are to breed, if there was a form of TSD expressed in them, it would certainly have been discovered by now.
They are still fairly new to the pet trade with little captive breeding information being freely shared. Half of the people out there claim tegus lay 6 to 9 eggs while others claim they like 50 to 80. I am glad to see all of the recent interest in breeding tegus that is coming from this site and in the chatroom. It will be nice to have a bunch of people breeding so we can all share our collective experiences. Bert will offer opinions. Ron doesn't seem so willing to reply to emails. I assume he feels they are competition, but I suppose that could be true.
I guess with my working with them for some 20 odd years gives me the perspective that they aren't that new, just a lot more popular in recent years.
However, now that you bring up the egg aspect, I came across a very erroneous article the other day that really made me go "whaa?!?!?". I have had the low egg clutch numbers in my study animals (9-15) but no big surprise there, their abdomens were already stuffed full with my telemeter implants. In our regular breeding colony, I would say we had clutches close to 50, but we only ever once had a clutch larger (52) but that could be ascribed to the fact that in a lot of our pens we would have one male with multiple females. I have never heard of a reliable claim in the 80s (or near it). But one of the claims in this bad article was that the tegus were capable of multiple clutches. Now, we've had females have extended layings that took place over several days, but that's not a true multiple clutch. Has anyone on this forum ever encountered such a deal as a multiple clutch from a single female?
As for you requiring proof, I have to admit, I think I was one of the people that pounded that one into you . There are a lot of other papers dealing with sex determination in lizards, but those are the better synopsis ones to give a more broader look at the subject. Although I have never directly interacted with Bert, I've seen his work and read a fair bit of his stuff and have a lot of respect for the man. He's quite scientific and thorough in his approach to his animals. Ron and Stella.....well, there's another 7 letter 'r' word that comes to mind, but it isn't respect.
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. There are a lot of other papers dealing with sex determination in lizards, but those are the better synopsis ones to give a more broader look at the subject. Although I have never directly interacted with Bert, I've seen his work and read a fair bit of his stuff and have a lot of respect for the man. He's quite scientific and thorough in his approach to his animals. Ron and Stella.....well, there's another 7 letter 'r' word that comes to mind, but it isn't respect.