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Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: Savanna Monitor "puppies" (reprise)
I'd like to present a good reason for training a sav- or any big lizard- it's the same rationale for training a dog. If you let a puppy run wild it would act like a wolf and become dangerous- so you teach it, just like i teach savs. If you have realistic expectations and make the effort, using the proper methods, you get the reward. How your sav behaves is a self fulfilling prophecy to a very large degree. They are naturally good natured, curious and very smart. They just need to be given a chance to show it. Why can't they be fine pets and companions?
what attracts me to reptiles is their wild, independant nature and the fact they never let you forget they are wild animals. If I wanted something to follow me around and cuddle on my lap, I'd get a cat!
My tegu is tame enough for me, and she got that way just through normal interactions during everyday care. Frankly if she started demanding affection and attention all the time it'd drive me nuts!
your analogy of taming a lizard for the same reason as taming a puppy doesn't apply. hopefully no one lets their lizards free-roam without careful supervision, so you shouldn't have to worry about them destroying your home or jumping all over your guests. hopefully, no one takes their lizards out for a free-run in public, where they could scare or injure someone. so there is no real need to train a lizard like you would a dog, if someone chooses to do so then it is just for the sake of whimsy. please don't imply that people who don't "train" their lizards like you do are the same as people who don't train their dogs.
Joined: Feb 06, 2007 Posts: 16 Location: Yuba City, California
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Savanna Monitor "puppies" (reprise)
danceswithsavs wrote:
I'd like to present a good reason for training a sav- or any big lizard- it's the same rationale for training a dog. If you let a puppy run wild it would act like a wolf and become dangerous- so you teach it, just like i teach savs. If you have realistic expectations and make the effort, using the proper methods, you get the reward. How your sav behaves is a self fulfilling prophecy to a very large degree. They are naturally good natured, curious and very smart. They just need to be given a chance to show it. Why can't they be fine pets and companions?
I think you are one of those people who hopes that these animals will be just like dogs. Catch frizbees and give you their paw, but this will never happen.
These lizards, and any other lizard, don't have the brain capacity to be trained anywhere near the way that a dog can. They go off instinct and what you seem to be "training" them is probably just narrowing down that instinct. They no longer see you as a threat, they may see you as how to get food so they come running up to you happy to get their afternoon treat.
Funny how you call them "naturally good natured" yet, do you tell people they will be fine getting adult Savs that were probably never handled? No, because these animals are no "naturally good natured". In the wild, the way they would behave to a human would be considered "agressive" not in any way good natured.
I think you are one of those people who hopes that these animals will be just like dogs. Catch frizbees and give you their paw, but this will never happen.
The entire world can do just fine without your speculation on my character, mr smith. Just as i will spare everyone my estimation of yours. There's been enough of that. Setting up a straw man is bad debating practice. Catching frisbees has to do with training a sav, as surely you must understand without me explaining it to you. If you have any valid comments on the vids or any other aspect of the training or the results thereof, please feel free to address that.
Quote:
Funny how you call them "naturally good natured" yet, do you tell people they will be fine getting adult Savs that were probably never handled? No, because these animals are no "naturally good natured". In the wild, the way they would behave to a human would be considered "agressive" not in any way good natured.
If you want wild animals- leave them in africa. If you make captives, they are not wild any more. They don't live on a savannah seeking out prey. They live in a house with people, now.
No, i don't tell anybody anything about how fine they will be or not. I just prove that taming a sav is easy enough and show my tame ones. It's that which proves that a tame sav is the keeper's option.
You know, if you put a puppy in a cage and fed it rats and never handled it, you'd get a wild acting animal too.
The fact that taming a sav is an option leads to the question of which choice to make and why to make that choice. We don't want feral savs. The savs don't care if they hunt in a field or eat on a carpet.
The ultimate criteria to judge the success of the keeper is longevity and reproductive success. Don't prejudge. I know you have an agenda, but it's not my agenda. If you want specimens that act wild, you can certainly do as you please with them. They can't stop you.
Buzzy is growing 1/4 inch per day now, Lilly 3/16 per day.
and now, I'd like to present Lilly's breakfast from yesterday:
your analogy of taming a lizard for the same reason as taming a puppy doesn't apply. hopefully no one lets their lizards free-roam without careful supervision, so you shouldn't have to worry about them destroying your home or jumping all over your guests. hopefully, no one takes their lizards out for a free-run in public, where they could scare or injure someone. so there is no real need to train a lizard like you would a dog, if someone chooses to do so then it is just for the sake of whimsy. please don't imply that people who don't "train" their lizards like you do are the same as people who don't train their dogs.
Rick takes his tegus to the park. He even has them clicker trained. We all know how horrible of a person he is.
there is two methods i dont agree with of yours the bath incident and hand feeding but i think you are right if you want them to be wild leave them where they are if you have a lizard that gets to 4ft of course you want it tame its part of the joys of owning monitors and tegus to have a predator lizard comeing to you and sitting on your lap its nice to have a trust between man and beast
i think your savs look very nice
Joined: Feb 06, 2007 Posts: 16 Location: Yuba City, California
Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:00 am Post subject:
[quote="Mr_Asmodius"]
Grimlock wrote:
Rick takes his tegus to the park. He even has them clicker trained. We all know how horrible of a person he is.
You people need to lighen up.
I guess something I forgot to add is the different levels of training them. I have heard (but not seen) of monitors using a cat box, but I wouldn't trust it until I finally saw it. But to put to put enough trust in an animal that will never be as 'tame' as a dog.
What are your expectations for training these animals?
I guess something I forgot to add is the different levels of training them. I have heard (but not seen) of monitors using a cat box, but I wouldn't trust it until I finally saw it. But to put to put enough trust in an animal that will never be as 'tame' as a dog.
What are your expectations for training these animals?
I guess you forgot to add quite a lot, didn't you? I mean, you learned to suck as an infant and associated a nipple with food, but are you still biting nipples out of hunger these days? But you didn't follow me here to ADD anything, did you? It looks like you came to subtract. Are you finding any allies in your War on Taming?
My expectations for these animals are clearly different than yours, mr smith.
My expectations are that i will learn about the animals capabilities by asking them rather than telling them. It appears that the study of these creatures has been inhibited by certain individuals who despise the notion. Somebody has to be first to overcome that prejudice. There is only one way to find out anything- that's to find out, not by joining forums to bash people and spread stories of animal abuse and even snuff vids in order to prevent a person from speaking of it. Such is the evangelical fervor, that there have been created several urban legends to demonise me in order to prevent the idea of taming from being treated at all. If you expect to try that here- think again.
Please note that without exception the individuals who pursue me from forum to forum have unfriendly animals. They rail against me for having tame savs because- you know why- wait for it-
THEY DON'T LOVE THEIR ANIMALS- THE ANIMALS ARE THEIR EGO ACCESSORIES AND LOSE VALUE IF THEY ARE NOT FEROCIOUS.
As my identity is in no way threatened by the existence of tame savs, i failed to foresee the opposition that has arisen. Now i have. Now i also see the power of rumour and the general ignorance of the mob. Mr. Smith: talk to da vids.
You keep comparing your taming of the savs to humans breast feeding. This is like comparing apples with oranges. Elephants to bees. Humans are far more advanced species than anything else. We can comprehend and grasp the ideas. WILD animals only learn from instinct and association. We know what is right from wrong. That is the reason people dont go around sucking on nipples as a source of food. We know it is wrong for a teenage to do that. Our mental capabilities are for more than any other species. _________________ Brad
1.0.0 Woma Python - Oz
1.3.9 Crested Geckos
0.0.1 A. versicolor - Blue
0.1.0 Bouvier des Flandres - Lexi
1.0.0 Cat - Sigmund
Joined: Feb 06, 2007 Posts: 16 Location: Yuba City, California
Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:47 pm Post subject:
danceswithsavs wrote:
I guess you forgot to add quite a lot, didn't you? I mean, you learned to suck as an infant and associated a nipple with food, but are you still biting nipples out of hunger these days? But you didn't follow me here to ADD anything, did you? It looks like you came to subtract. Are you finding any allies in your War on Taming?
My expectations for these animals are clearly different than yours, mr smith.
My expectations are that i will learn about the animals capabilities by asking them rather than telling them. It appears that the study of these creatures has been inhibited by certain individuals who despise the notion. Somebody has to be first to overcome that prejudice. There is only one way to find out anything- that's to find out, not by joining forums to bash people and spread stories of animal abuse and even snuff vids in order to prevent a person from speaking of it. Such is the evangelical fervor, that there have been created several urban legends to demonise me in order to prevent the idea of taming from being treated at all. If you expect to try that here- think again.
Please note that without exception the individuals who pursue me from forum to forum have unfriendly animals. They rail against me for having tame savs because- you know why- wait for it-
THEY DON'T LOVE THEIR ANIMALS- THE ANIMALS ARE THEIR EGO ACCESSORIES AND LOSE VALUE IF THEY ARE NOT FEROCIOUS.
As my identity is in no way threatened by the existence of tame savs, i failed to foresee the opposition that has arisen. Now i have. Now i also see the power of rumour and the general ignorance of the mob. Mr. Smith: talk to da vids.
I'll answer to this as I read through it since it is such a long post...
To bring up humans in a debate against reptile knowledge is totally off the point. We have much bigger and better brains then reptiles. They can't learn what we can. I'm not saying they can't learn anything, Tegus and Monitors following you around for food can happen as you see.
I didn't follow you from anywhere, your post about this silly subject is the first I saw on this forum. As you have said before, it's not good to judge. Your saying things one way and doing them another.
I'm not finding any "allies" nor am I looking for any. I felt I should put in my idea on the subject, seeing as this is a public message board. Was I wrong in doing so?
Again, I didn't join this forum to bash anyone, is that the whole reason you made this topic? So more people would bring up a new stance and you could pounce on them?
Here you are again, making your judgements on people. You want people to stop judging you, yet you continue judging them.
I did watch a couple of the videos. One of which, didn't the animal nearly bite you or your wife's lips or nose? These are itty bitty animals, when they are bigger they may "accidently" go for your throat.
I wasn't here to bash you, or anything like that. I saw the subject and felt the need to put in my 2 cents.
This has been an interesting thread!
I do not know danceswithsavs but I actually give this individual
lots of credit for trying something different. While I may not subscribe
to all of the opinions and points of view I admire that danceswithsavs
is sticking to their convictions and beliefs.
Whether they are successful or not in their endeavor, I am sure something will be learned in the process. You don't know unless you try!
What is very evident to me is that their animals look well cared for and healthy.
I am not trying to further the debate so if you're going to bash me save your time and energy because I will not retort.
E _________________ 1.1.0 B/W Argentine Tegu
0.0.1 Red Tegu
my apologies, alexsmith, for mistaking you for bwsmith from another forum. Please forgive me.
Buzzy, who, in the vids of his training, is shown making every possible mistake in the course of perfecting his skills, is the star of Savvage Manners. He's gained experience and will get much more through many thousands of rehearsals in his life. People who smoke thousands of cigarettes seem to have trouble quitting even with intention. It's not possible for Buzzy to be anything but what his habits are. If he were to accidentally grab a part of a person, he lets go. He also knows the command "NO!'
The savs only get food from a hand and always 'kiss' for it. That's the reason you see Lilly looking up every time when she knows the food will be coming from below. They have a lot of practice and learning to take food from a hand without eating the hand was no more trouble than teaching a puppy not to snap at a treat, really. Baby savs don't bite hard and have small teeth; they get bigger and more powerful as they grow, as you also pointed out. Given that they will be handled extensively on a daily basis, teaching them is the best insurance against an injury due to untamed behaviour.
In response to concerns about their behaviour and safety as they grow into powerful creatures, i've made the following three in the past couple of days. (these are not scripted- i only have to have the camera running and show what they do)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZECd60MaakM <same buzzy, just 5 times larger, capable of a severe bite.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrIZSG1dmPs
the third of this set is 2.8G . It's still too large and needs to be cut or split.
reptileking
Quote:
You keep comparing your taming of the savs to humans breast feeding. This is like comparing apples with oranges. Elephants to bees. Humans are far more advanced species than anything else. We can comprehend and grasp the ideas. WILD animals only learn from instinct and association.
All animals across the phylum Vertebrata learn by the the same mechanism: association. Human learning is no different.
Are you saying that Buzzy and Lilly are tame?
Quote:
We know what is right from wrong. That is the reason people dont go around sucking on nipples as a source of food. We know it is wrong for a teenage to do that. Our mental capabilities are for more than any other species.
If you can define 'right' and 'wrong' for me, here and now, i'll grant that you have something over the savs who only care what works or fails. If you can not define the words you use, then how am i to credit them with any more meaning than an animal's grunt? (plz to do this on PM or make a new thread.) How deeply have you thought and studied behaviorism, metaphysics, epistemology? Are you as far along as you need to be to enter a debate just yet? Can you honestly say you have a well informed and considered opinion? If not, then be not so passionate that it forever commits you to defense of a poorly considered belief.
I do happen to know right and wrong. I would be delighted that everybody should, but alas- they do not. There is no question that humans have greater potential than lizards IF it is developed. On the other hand, a lizard can't promote an agenda; can't make up lies; can't choose to be stupid. A lizard can not ever choose to betray his nature, while people can and do!
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