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Though I don't believe it was a just and moral decision to do, I think you have learned from this stunt not to do it again. I try not to hold grudges and scowled people for the rest of their life for one mistake.
Other than that, I will help support you, but the hero thing kind of made my skin tense up.
'RehabRalphy', if you look a little deeper into the training log, you will see this has happened before. Although 'danceswithsavs' claims that monitors learn after the first time, this does not appear to be the case with him:
danceswithsavs wrote:
He has started the day with the same rage. Touching his 'jail box' elicited much hissing from within. We decided to put him in the bathtub with deep water in order to exhaust him and then be the 'heroes' that 'rescue' him.
We did this all while being very mindful to not show face, hands or let him smelll us. We did not sing or speak, either. Thugs in burka were we.
He didn't paddle actively- he was unusually calm in the water. Usually he paddles like mad till he can get a grip on something. We watched with one eye around the shower curtain, which was drawn.
After 5 minutes or so, he flipped on his back, head underwater, and remained still. This was a frightening image, as we had lost a monitor to drowning and found his corpse in the same pose. The wife immediately snatched him up He had not inhaled any water and seemed OK, but all fight was gone. He was doing a hard-core 'freeze'. Wife put him inside her bathrobe where it was warm, dark and smelled familiar.
We are, ourselves, upset over this inexplicable defensive behaviour, not only because it violated our expectations, but also because this is not behaviour that is compatible with living as a pet and he would have to be kept as a breeding specimen if he keeps it up. Because the sister is so utterly wonderful, the contrast makes him seem all the more inexplicable because after a month he has still not come as far as she did on the very first day. Maybe he will hate people all his life. We speculate on anything we may have done wrong or if he had some childhood traumas- we grasp at straws for any explanation. We argue like parents about the upbringing of a child...lol.
So, this individual has drowned a monitor before and knew very well the dangers that are faced by placing a Varanus exanthematicus in water that is too deep.
danceswithsavs wrote:
We are, ourselves, upset over this inexplicable defensive behaviour, not only because it violated our expectations, but also because this is not behaviour that is compatible with living as a pet and he would have to be kept as a breeding specimen if he keeps it up.
For being such a self-professed expert of behaviour, this statement screams “I DO NOT UNDERSTAND MONITOR BEHAVIOUR AT ALL!” For anyone that has worked with monitors for years in captivity or in the field, the reaction is well known; it is a reaction of shock as is further described here:
danceswithsavs wrote:
I took over, later, putting the boy in my shirt, where he slept for hours.
Had the monitor only been exhausted (highly unlikely in 5 minutes, unless the monitor was in extremely poor condition) or only ‘scared stiff’, a reaction that often occurs with monitors that are caught in the field. This reaction only lasts a few minutes and ends in the case of an exhausted specimen and a few seconds to a few minutes after they are let go, in the case of captured specimens. I have experienced this on a number of occasions in the field.
Reptileking wrote:
Please let me know if I am wrong, but cant monitors swim or atleast float? So if you put them in water, they will swim and stay on top of the water. Now in order for the water to be over his head, there has to be pressure on top of him in order for his head to be under water.
Yes, all monitors have at least a limited ability to swim or float. Varanus exanthematicus has a rather limited ability to swim and is known to be a weak swimmer and is not at all fond of water in nature. Iguanas, as you well know, are very strong swimmers.
danceswithsavs wrote:
yes, they float and swim. mine get a bath almost every day in the tub and stick their own heads under water with eyes open and flick their tongues out exploring. They really seem to enjoy it.
As stated above from your own writings, you had one die in that manner and caused another one to go into shock! YOU REALLY THINK THEY ENJOY THAT? This really shows how very little you learned about these animals, not even being aware of their natural history.
Although I have read the ‘training manual’ thoroughly, I have yet to find where stressing your monitor out by leaving them in deep water fits into it. All I have found are some facts, which are greatly outnumbered by false assumptions that anyone who has studied monitors could tell you are wrong.
It is claimed that those that do not agree with this ‘training’ are somehow against having docile monitors. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have docile monitors that have become docile without the torture of near (or actual) drowning and without the anthropomorphism, as have many others.
I see that your use of invective is still your speciality.
well, i'm now convinced my opinion of these people was correct from the start. there is NO excuse for forcing your monitors to swim until they are exhausted, that is outright cruelty. the fact you have lost one to drowning before is INEXCUSABLE!!!! to think
mike C
i see you write rather clearly and spell rather well.
Therefore i must assume reading comprehension is not your problem.
You put them into shock as a matter of course? Is this for fun, or in order to sell them to careless owners?
You firmly hold forth:
Quote:
For being such a self-professed expert of behaviour, this statement screams “I DO NOT UNDERSTAND MONITOR BEHAVIOUR AT ALL!” For anyone that has worked with monitors for years in captivity or in the field, the reaction is well known
You, the expert who advises of the true nature of monitors, trumpet about this evil but practice it yourself repeatedly?
Quote:
I have experienced this on a number of occasions in the field.
Does that make you a hero?
You can't have this both ways-
You, who do this yourself, repeatedly, are fine with it when they are your commodity? Plundering the plains and putting animals into shock for a dollar is somethng you do for a living or just as a sadistic hobby?
No wonder you have to stop anybody from thinking that savs are tamable! You HAVE to have ppl think they are wild and vicious and that having a 'docile' one brings you home the Trophy!
No wonder you have to attribute to me all the crimes of which You are guilty!
Isn't this the real reason you spin a story about a flip in the tub into a novella about torture and serial killing? So people will hate on me and not find out savs can be intelligent and friendly?
Quote:
I have docile monitors that have become docile without the torture of near (or actual) drowning and without the anthropomorphism, as have many others.
You don't have tame monitors?
Well, mine are pettable and cuddly.
Eat my vids, bambi hater...lol.
i try hard to find the good in everybody and give everybody a chance, but danceswithsavs you never once said you felt bad about doing that to that poor critter. i have to agree that it is unexcusable. i would call putting it in deep water and making it swim, torture. would you like it if someone did that to you? you would think you were gonna die/drown, that critter had no idea it would be saved. the poor little guy was probably horrified. just thinking about it makes my eyes tear up. _________________ "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened"-Anatole France
http://www.herpworld.com/
Joined: Feb 01, 2006 Posts: 403 Location: Missouri
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:44 pm Post subject:
louise wrote:
i try hard to find the good in everybody and give everybody a chance, but danceswithsavs you never once said you felt bad about doing that to that poor critter. i have to agree that it is unexcusable. i would call putting it in deep water and making it swim, torture. would you like it if someone did that to you? you would think you were gonna die/drown, that critter had no idea it would be saved. the poor little guy was probably horrified. just thinking about it makes my eyes tear up.
I agree.
They will not think of you as a hero if your trying to drown them (and don't negate this comment because essentially, you know that was what you were trying to do). If I try to drown you, then at the last minute save your life, you would hate me forever, and I should go to jail for attempted murder....
And you said it yourself, monitors can be taught like you can teach a mentally retarded child. Not even someone with that condition can understand who's the "hero" in that vile circumstance.
Yet you say they are like your children, but you try this stunt.
i try hard to find the good in everybody and give everybody a chance, but danceswithsavs you never once said you felt bad about doing that to that poor critter. i have to agree that it is unexcusable. i would call putting it in deep water and making it swim, torture. would you like it if someone did that to you? you would think you were gonna die/drown, that critter had no idea it would be saved. the poor little guy was probably horrified. just thinking about it makes my eyes tear up.
I agree.
They will not think of you as a hero if your trying to drown them (and don't negate this comment because essentially, you know that was what you were trying to do). If I try to drown you, then at the last minute save your life, you would hate me forever, and I should go to jail for attempted murder....
And you said it yourself, monitors can be taught like you can teach a mentally retarded child. Not even someone with that condition can understand who's the "hero" in that vile circumstance.
Yet you say they are like your children, but you try this stunt.
very well said! _________________ "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened"-Anatole France
http://www.herpworld.com/
mike C
i see you write rather clearly and spell rather well.
Therefore i must assume reading comprehension is not your problem.
Yes, reading comprehension is not my problem, but it is obviously your problem.
danceswithsavs wrote:
You put them into shock as a matter of course? Is this for fun, or in order to sell them to careless owners?.
You firmly hold forth:
Quote:
For being such a self-professed expert of behaviour, this statement screams “I DO NOT UNDERSTAND MONITOR BEHAVIOUR AT ALL!” For anyone that has worked with monitors for years in captivity or in the field, the reaction is well known
You, the expert who advises of the true nature of monitors, trumpet about this evil but practice it yourself repeatedly?
Quote:
I have experienced this on a number of occasions in the field.
I have experienced this on a number of occasions, not caused it, except in the capture of wild monitors, which often causes them to freeze (see previous post), not go into shock. The most recent example of shock I experienced was a Varanus salvator salvator that was caught in my study area which went into shock after being caught on a fishing line; this specimen suffered from organ shut down as a result. You are very lucky this did not happen to a second monitor into your care.
danceswithsavs wrote:
You, who do this yourself, repeatedly, are fine with it when they are your commodity? Plundering the plains and putting animals into shock for a dollar is somethng you do for a living or just as a sadistic hobby?
No wonder you have to stop anybody from thinking that savs are tamable! You HAVE to have ppl think they are wild and vicious and that having a 'docile' one brings you home the Trophy!
No wonder you have to attribute to me all the crimes of which You are guilty!
As is quite evident, you are the only one practicing the torture (near drowning of monitors as a training method) and the only one bragging about the fact (yes fact (unless you are lying), not hearsay) by posting this on your own website.
Many monitor owners, including myself have docile monitors without torturing them or even stressing them to be that way.
Again showing your lack of knowledge concerning monitors, Varanus exanthematicus is one of the more tractable species of monitors and as a result, one least impressive to claim as having a docile monitor.
danceswithsavs wrote:
Isn't this the real reason you spin a story about a flip in the tub into a novella about torture and serial killing? So people will hate on me and not find out savs can be intelligent and friendly?
Torture: The action or practice of inflicting great physical or mental suffering or anxiety.
Spinning a story? I think the near drowning and creating shock fits well into the definition of torture. As far as serial killing goes, you have only killed one monitor (so far), but I see it is just a matter of time.
Where has anyone in any forum stated that Varanus exanthematicus is not intelligent or can not be friendly? I think it has been written on many occasions that they are among the most tractable of monitors.
The most recent example of shock I experienced was a Varanus salvator salvator that was caught in my study area which went into shock after being caught on a fishing line; this specimen suffered from organ shut down as a result. You are very lucky this did not happen to a second monitor into your care.
I did not actually capture this specimen in its traditional definition. I captured it (took it into my possession). Capture in this case was finding it already in shock on a fishing line that someone left out in the field. Just wanted to clarify capture in this case.
wow this subject is gettin old i saw her resent videos and liked her savanas their pretty cute and very tame If she is guilty of anything its loving her savannas too much
wow this subject is gettin old i saw her resent videos and liked her savanas their pretty cute and very tame If she is guilty of anything its loving her savannas too much
love is not putting a critter in deep water to exhaust it and then play hero to save it. if that is love, then i want to be hated. _________________ "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened"-Anatole France
http://www.herpworld.com/
Joined: Feb 06, 2007 Posts: 16 Location: Yuba City, California
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:18 pm Post subject:
tegusrock wrote:
wow this subject is gettin old i saw her resent videos and liked her savanas their pretty cute and very tame If she is guilty of anything its loving her savannas too much
You seem to not have read this entire subject or watched all of her videos.
I think danceswithsavs just has a very severe problem of being able to see what is wrong and what is right. He/she is CLEARLY 100% wrong in what he/she did, but still argues her case.
You constantly compare your animals with humans, eating from nipples. Hopefully you remember that, it seems to be brought up in nearly every post you argue with someone...
Think if you put a baby underwater until it's lips were blue, then took it out and brought it back to life. Think of what the authorities would say, and what they would call it. Like Rehab Ralphy said, it would be attempted murder.
I think danceswithsavs needs to quit trying to argue and realise his/her mistakes. There was no good in what you did to that animal, how could you argue against that?
Now, I'm not saying that I don't agree with the whole training stuff you are doing, I am all for it. If you can do it I would love to see the progress, but nearly drowning it is just going too far...
Wow...Dances, I have noticed that when you respond to these accusations, you do nothing but turn it back around on the poster, and try to make them look bad. It is as if you are acknowledging that you did wrong, but saying "well you did it too!!" You are really not looking good, you need to explain how you managed to drown a monitor before, and why you came close to doing it again.
You claim you raise your monitor lizards like puppies, and train them like dogs. Is that is what you do with dogs too?? Uh oh, Daisy growled at us! Toss her in the pool until she almost drowns, then we'll save her, and she'll be like "OMG I love you!!" Come on, it's pretty ridiculous and you need to explain your actions properly.
Seriously, please just don't force them to swim until they pass out...thats just not right.
he said the first one drowned in its own water dish. but i dont know. _________________ "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened"-Anatole France
http://www.herpworld.com/
he said the first one drowned in its own water dish. but i dont know.
One really must think about this cause, if it was indeed the cause.
1) What is a Varanus exanthematicus doing in a 'water bowl' that it could not get out of; this indicates a complete ignorance of not only their natural history and lack of swimming ability, but also of conditions that should be set up for them.
2) If by chance the Varanus exanthematicus was able to get out of this 'water dish', why was it in such a weakened condition that it could not exit the 'water dish'? Was it still recovering from a previous 'training period' or did it dare hiss at you?
3) Nothing was learned from the first death?
Grimlock wrote:
Wow...Dances, I have noticed that when you respond to these accusations, you do nothing but turn it back around on the poster, and try to make them look bad. It is as if you are acknowledging that you did wrong, but saying "well you did it too!!" You are really not looking good, you need to explain how you managed to drown a monitor before, and why you came close to doing it again.
Yes, Danceswithsavs may not know much about monitors or monitor behaviour, but he is an expert in the use of invective, as is apparent in 'well you did it too!!' argument. If you look at all the fora and the writings on his own website, there is concern that this happened, because it did not meet HIS EXPECTATIONS, but never is their a hint or suggestion of regret.
Grimlock, do not expect an explanation, only invective in return for questioning the method. If there is an explanation, it will probably be the first time, but I have only seen him on half the fora that he has been banned from.
After two months, I am still waiting for one reptile behaviourist (anyone of note who has studied monitor behaviour) that supports these 'training' methods; however, if you look close at his detractors, you will surely find one.
michael, i want to thank you for opening up peoples eyes about danceswithsavs. at one point i thought he was the greatest thing ever. _________________ "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened"-Anatole France
http://www.herpworld.com/
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