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Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:20 pm Post subject: Some Real Monitor Experts Who Can Not Lie
I think i'll just let some real experts speak on my behalf, mr mike C.
Buzzy and Lilly provide expert testimony:
HERE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZECd60MaakM
(Watch a poor lizard, trapped in the Tub of Death from which he can not eScape, as a heroic airlift by the Jolly Pink Giant rescues him! Shocking footage! courtesy of crocdoc and his mighty minions)
Looks to me like all the real experts are on my side and you are a jealous phony.
C'mon, mr mike C the expert monitor behaviourist!
What do Your monitors have to say about You?
You said one of your monitors is 'docile'? Do you call it docile because it's the only one you have that doesn't want to kill you?
What's the real reason you have to convince everyone that i must be crazy 'because they are wild animals'?
What's the reason your monitors don't like you? What is it that you are covering up for with the excuse 'they are wild animals so i shock them repeatedly in the field in order to throw them in a tank and toss in rats'?
And the vids of my savs just keep coming, because all i have to do is follow them around and keep a camera pointed. Look closely- they are not dogs or cats, they are friendly savs.
We know you'll never be showing any of yours and we know full well why, don't we, mr mike C, you despicable fraud?
Lastly, i'd appreciate it if everybody could find something else to mock. The death of a pet should be regarded with a little more solemnity if you care about the animals or the humans who love them.
I will no longer bother with the bambi-haters. I'll just post my vids. They are the proof that falsifies the claims of those gurus who claim to be experts. Savs are as tame or wild as the keeper trains them to be. QED.
have a blast with the smear campaign, cringing minions who wouldn't know honesty if it bit you on the face. I'll have a blast with my friendly and cuddly savs. My monitors like me. If yours don't like you- well they are smarter than you thought, eh?
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edits to fix link and add one.
again to add another one.
edits to add one more vids!
Last edited by danceswithsavs on Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:48 pm, edited 3 times in total
Joined: Feb 01, 2006 Posts: 403 Location: Missouri
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject:
Probably not Jech. No animal is considered to be an expert. Digby in chat proved danceswithsavs wrong and she has yet to negate it. I think its pretty much closed.
Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:18 am Post subject: Re: Some Real Monitor Experts Who Can Not Lie
danceswithsavs wrote:
I think i'll just let some real experts speak on my behalf, mr mike C.
Buzzy and Lilly provide expert testimony:
HERE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZECd60MaakM
(Watch a poor lizard, trapped in the Tub of Death from which he can not excape, as a heroic airlift by the Jolly Pink Giant rescues him! Shocking footage! courtesy of crocdoc and his mighty minions)
Looks to me like all the real experts are on my side and you are a jealous phony.
C'mon, mr mike C the expert monitor behaviourist!
What do Your monitors have to say about You?
You said one of your monitors is 'docile'? Do you call it docile because it's the only one you have that doesn't want to kill you?
What's the real reason you have to convince everyone that i must be crazy 'because they are wild animals'?
What's the reason your monitors don't like you? What is it that you are covering up for with the excuse 'they are wild animals so i shock them repeatedly in the field in order to throw them in a tank and toss in rats'?
And the vids of my savs just keep coming, because all i have to do is follow them around and keep a camera pointed. Look closely- they are not dogs or cats, they are friendly savs.
We know you'll never be showing any of yours and we know full well why, don't we, mr mike C, you despicable fraud?
Lastly, i'd appreciate it if everybody could find something else to mock. The death of a pet should be regarded with a little more solemnity if you care about the animals or the humans who love them.
I will no longer bother with the bambi-haters. I'll just post my vids. They are the proof that falsifies the claims of those gurus who claim to be experts. Savs are as tame or wild as the keeper trains them to be. QED.
….and the invective continues to spew.
Sorry it took so long for me to respond, but I was enlightening a professional forum on your anthropomorphism and torture method (Canadian Water Torture?), which is entitled: ‘Anthropomorphism: irresponsible and criminal behaviour’.
Pictures of my monitors and their conditions are posted on many sites to including many of which you have been banned from. (Please note: all of my monitors that have been pictured and posted in the past are still alive). I am sure that you can go to an internet café that does not recognise your IP address and find them.
It is becoming most tiresome educating you in definitions of simple words, such as torture, tame, testimony, expert and docile. Please buy a dictionary. Testimony: a formal written or spoken statement. Expert: a person who has comprehensive and authoritative knowledge of or skill in a particular area. The key word is person. Yes, I understand the anthropomorphism you suffer from makes you unable to distinguish between person and monitor lizard, frog, fish or any other animal (look up the word ‘person’ yourself. Docile: passive, willing to what happens without resistance. It is no wonder that you do not understand more complex words such as anthropomorphism or epistemology. In anthropomorphism, you can not help yourself from comparing people to monitor lizards, thereby actually defining it, but still not understanding what you are doing. Although it appears that you have done some study into psychology and human behaviour, you fail to see how so much that you write, does not apply to monitors. In epistemology, a writer of a poor care sheet appears to have studied more into the nature and grounds of knowledge than you have with your own monitors.
You do not realise what a mistake you have made threatening me with slander via private message. Another definition for you: slander: crime of making a false written statement damaging to a person’s reputation. First of all, all the information used was provided by you, so unless you are lying in your own writings, everything is true (have you been lying to everyone?). Second of all, it must also be damaging to your reputation. After you have been kicked off of 6 fora, what reputation is there to damage? In my travels, I have become proficient in a number of languages and although most people around the world that have viewed your videos, except those in North America, are laughing at your videos for what they are, anthropomorphic refuse, they will become aware of the abuse/torture of your ‘training’ practices.
You seem to think this overwhelming negativity against you comes from Crocdoc and he is leading the charge against you. Again, you are completely wrong. Although I have corresponded with him and know of him, I have never spoken to him or seen him in person. You would find it most difficult to find someone that I do not know of who studies monitors. The herpetological community is small and those who specialise in monitors are not great in number. The saddest part of all is that you have no idea of who your detractors are, what they really know, or what their experiences are.
Who is mocking the death of your monitor? I find it sad, but what I find most sad of all is that you failed to learn from your mistake and repeated it, almost killing off another monitor. Did you even have a necropsy done to find out what the cause of death was or did you just treat it as a disposable commodity and buy a new one, like a child that has broken his toy?
Big Teg after a bath. Big Teg is beloved by allhe has met, handlable by all he has met and has never been put in a bath over his head. I think this is the problem - saying that youre doing this to tame your lizards when it really isnt necessary is going to rub some people up the wrong way. It seems such a shame, as Im sure you have good intentions ultimately. But I remember a nice chap that posted on here whose lizard was accidentally killed by his young daughter - who though she was doing it a favour by putting bath soap into its water. I can commend the ideal of having well-socialised pet lizards, definitely - but I think there are potentially less stressful and less risky ways of doing it. _________________ www.freewebs.com/johelian www.freewebs.com/joslittleworld
---------------------------------
1.0.0 Argentine Tegu T.merianae
3.4.0 Monkey Tailed Skink C.zebrata
1.0.0 Crawl Cay Boa B.c.imperator
0.1.0 Royal Python P.regius
Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 972269 Location: Central Maine
Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject:
I have been asked to monitor these threads because of a method being used by the poster. I just read the 'monitor training' page that is posted by dancewithsavs and I must speak up and say that I do not recommend this method, which I feel is nothing more than mistreatment.
Forcing a lizard into deep water and making it tread water, fearing for it's life, is not only the incorrect way to 'earn trust' from your pet, but you could loose your pet's life by doing so.
I recommend social interaction and positive reinforcement. I am sure all of you have all seen my 'tegu attention' video. These animals are tamed merely with love and understanding. Nothing more is required.
The method of putting an animal through extreme physical and psychological torment in order to make it 'trust' you is appalling.
I have been asked to monitor these threads because of a method being used by the poster. I just read the 'monitor training' page that is posted by dancewithsavs and I must speak up and say that I do not recommend this method, which I feel is nothing more than mistreatment.
Forcing a lizard into deep water and making it tread water, fearing for it's life, is not only the incorrect way to 'earn trust' from your pet, but you could loose your pet's life by doing so.
I recommend social interaction and positive reinforcement. I am sure all of you have all seen my 'tegu attention' video. These animals are tamed merely with love and understanding. Nothing more is required.
The method of putting an animal through extreme physical and psychological torment in order to make it 'trust' you is appalling.
Rick Sisco
Ah, the voice of reason. I've been trying to tell these people pretty much the same thing: that monitors will usually become very calm captives without the need for any water exhaustion techniques. Give them the right amount of space and respect and they eventually gain your trust. Positive reinforcement is the key, not negative reinforcement (I haven't even mentioned the mini-'solitary confinement' they also used, in addition to the water technique, for punishing baby monitors that show natural defensive behaviour).
Sadly, Rick, the people in question will be on another forum within the next week or two, extolling the virtues of their amazing training regimen. They'll say that they don't understand why everyone is resistant to their ideas, so clearly it must be because they are against the concept of training reptiles, or that they don't like the idea of having calm reptiles and prefer their captives to be savage. No mention will be made of the drowning/saving technique, other than it being a 'rumour' invented by the 'mob' that is against them. The list of 'mob' members will now probably include your name.
Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 972269 Location: Central Maine
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:50 am Post subject:
The difference is that in tegu circles, most people know how tame my tegus are. How my tegus will follow kids around the local park to be petted while they are free roaming. How my tegus will all swarm me to be the one who gets held on my shoulder. My tegus get this way with lots of love and attention.
It will be hard for him to convince many people I am against tame reptiles.
I posted that I did not agree with him, that I considered that method abusive and all of a sudden he turned, verbally attacking me in PM. I suppose since I didn't agree with him that he wishes he could put me in deep water over my head until I promised to agree with him. Too bad for him, I don't roll over as easy as a drowning monitor.
If he adds me to a list of people that do not agree with his methods, well.. thats a badge I would wear with honor.
Joined: Jul 18, 2005 Posts: 340 Location: Bay Area,Ca
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject:
i had heard of the drowning method on many occasions on several forums but i happen to actually stumble upon it from a youtube video where the site reptiletraining.com was advertised, so out of curiousity i checked it out and sure enough there it is and truly what a crappy inhumane thing this is, i will copy a few excerpts from this so people who havent seen it can see what it's all about
Quote:
He has started the day with the same rage. Touching his 'jail box' elicited much hissing from within. We decided to put him in the bathtub with deep water in order to exhaust him and then be the 'heroes' that 'rescue' him.
Quote:
He didn't paddle actively- he was unusually calm in the water. Usually he paddles like mad till he can get a grip on something. We watched with one eye around the shower curtain, which was drawn.
Quote:
After 5 minutes or so, he flipped on his back, head underwater, and remained still. This was a frightening image, as we had lost a monitor to drowning and found his corpse in the same pose.
there ya have it, the twisted ramblings of a lunatic
Joined: Mar 03, 2006 Posts: 521 Location: Chicago, IL
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:29 pm Post subject:
I can't believe people actually think that is right... its so horrible. Would you do that with your child? I'd hope not, so why do these people think it is right to do it with reptiles. I'm so enraged, while at the same time saddened... that's so wrong on so many levels. _________________ -Art-
there is no video of it, just a description in a 'training log' on a website. There has since been a video made of the sav in shallow water in a bath (link in the first post in this thread).
i had heard of the drowning method on many occasions on several forums but i happen to actually stumble upon it from a youtube video where the site reptiletraining.com was advertised, so out of curiousity i checked it out and sure enough there it is and truly what a crappy inhumane thing this is, i will copy a few excerpts from this so people who havent seen it can see what it's all about
Quote:
He has started the day with the same rage. Touching his 'jail box' elicited much hissing from within. We decided to put him in the bathtub with deep water in order to exhaust him and then be the 'heroes' that 'rescue' him.
Quote:
He didn't paddle actively- he was unusually calm in the water. Usually he paddles like mad till he can get a grip on something. We watched with one eye around the shower curtain, which was drawn.
Quote:
After 5 minutes or so, he flipped on his back, head underwater, and remained still. This was a frightening image, as we had lost a monitor to drowning and found his corpse in the same pose.
there ya have it, the twisted ramblings of a lunatic
the frist time i read that i ended up with tears in my eyes.
rick, i get the terrible PMs and stuff too now. that is why i went off chat. _________________ "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened"-Anatole France
http://www.herpworld.com/
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Look closely- they are not dogs or cats, they are friendly savs.
