Any co2 users ?

reptilefreak · Honored Member Joined: Feb 28, 2007 Posts: 196

I keep hearing that a CO2 chamber is kinda cruel. I was told that they choke because they aren't breathing oxygen. Is that true?
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RehabRalphy · Banned Joined: Feb 01, 2006 Posts: 403 Location: Missouri

Any method of killing can be considered as "cruel". Its just depends on what you believe.

Hell I drown em'

Vexation · Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:53 pm Post subject:

The CO2 idea honestly sounds like the cleanest method. I always used the thump method - grab by tail, THUMP real hard against the nearest hard surface. I believe the result is similar to the bag method Mike described.

Still, with off & on years of keeping reptiles, even in my advancing age, I still have a touch of remorse doing it. My daughters keep pet rats and they have them trained! It is a constant battle keeping them away from the breeders, else I'd have hungry herps.

reptilefreak · Honored Member Joined: Feb 28, 2007 Posts: 196

I don't know...sometimes I think the freezer would be best, but then I don't think I could put them in there. I'd break their necks or whatever but I'm scared I would screw up and they would still live. Ugh it is so hard! hehe
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tupinambis · Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:48 am Post subject:

I'm not sure what the laws are in the US for the common layman, but regulations for standard scientific protocols only accept non-painful lethal injection, cervical dissociation, sudden blunt trauma to the cranium, and CO2 inhalation. Essentially, only instantaneous or painless euthanasia is acceptable. Drowning and freezing are considered abuse. I know CO2 actually acts much like an anaesthetic in ectotherms, but I've been told by some of my colleagues (I haven't tried it myself) that breathing hypercapnic air can be rather uncomfortable.

alex · Valued Member Joined: Aug 03, 2005 Posts: 106

Rebreathing (i.e. breathing increased levels of CO2) is kind of uncomfortable, to put it mildly. It has all sorts of weird detrimental effects in mammals. However, to actually euthanise rodents with CO2 you use such a high concentration (really, it has to be close to 100%, it's heavier than air so when you open a chamber to throw in your rodents you don't flush it all out) it's quite quickly narcotising and apparently perceived as somewhat pleasant, despite the body's gasping.

Other forms of intoxication are acceptable - gas anaesthesia overdose or injectable drug (primarily pentobarbital which isn't called euthanyl in the US, I'm not a fan of t61 in mammals) but clearly, they're not ideal if you're going to feed those animals to something else as that something else gets a hefty dose of chemical and will likely show effects from them and potentially die. Rodent poison sold in stores (i.e. the anticoagulants or vit D analogues, I don't know if you can still get strychnine and 10-80 over thec ounter in the US) are a really terribly bad idea for anything you wish to feed to something else, obviously.

Cervical dislocation is quick and if you're handling your rodents properly, painless and low stress.... "thumping" is a really crude attempt at this and causes a lot of trauma and I think it just puts the rodent into a semi conscious state of shock rather than a true painless death... they might die afterwards, but I'm not convinced you're not going to have a mouse revive and be in a lot of pain for awhile.

Freezing is inhumane in either Canada or the US. The US has some funky laws with rodents (I can't believe retrobulbar blood collection is still legal, for instance) but freezing a live animal is abusive. It's a slow painful and extremely conscious way to die as ice crystals form in muscle and organs. Ditto drowning. If you know anyone who kills mice that way you should be reporting them to the SPCA for animal abuse, although I imagine it'd be more of a fine than a criminal charge at that level.

If you're too chicken to learn to properly kill mice (I'm not saying the feeling of a mouse's skull separating from it's vertebral column under my fingers is particularly pleasant) you should buy your mice prekilled... and always ask how they prekill their mice to ensure you're buying from an ethical source. As is often the case with death, it doesn't look pleasant when it sometimes is - mice are often dead when the body spasms and gasps and twitches. It looks bad but it isn't for the mouse. It's extremely selfish to put your comfort over that of the animal you're feeding to your pet.

reptilefreak · Honored Member Joined: Feb 28, 2007 Posts: 196

I think I'll go with the CO2 then. I don't want to cause them any pain before feeding them to my tegu.

I didn't know ice crystals formed on the organs of mammals. I knew it did on reptiles, and that's why it is VERY unethical and cruel to put down a reptile by throwing it in the freezer.

I'd like to breed the rats to save money, but if I can't then I'll just by them pre-killed. I also like rats, so it be nice to have a few around, even if they are breeders.
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Vexation · Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:28 am Post subject:

Great - now only the most heartless of us don't feel bad.

I think I'll put some of my old engineeering talents to work and design a liquid nitrogen chamber for instant freezing. When I am done, I'll get it patented for the intended purpose, then sell the plans. I will also contract with a major TV merchandiser to sell it as the Ronco Ratcicle.

For The Tegu members, the plans (with complete operating instructions) will be $1, plus $6.95 shipping and handling. For PETA members, the plans (without operating instructions) will be $2,995.00 with free shipping. PETA members masquerading as The Tegu members will be taken out back and beaten.

Call 1-800-RAT-KILL for more details.

The preceding was intended as Ralph's tongue-in-cheek (read: warped) humor, even though the idea is something I may decide to work on...

RehabRalphy · Banned Joined: Feb 01, 2006 Posts: 403 Location: Missouri

Trippercook · Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject:

Well...I just started using the co2 method. I use a medium size rubber maid container with a hole drilled in the lid and a co2 tire inflator. Works like a charm. They're dead within seconds....how painful can it be.
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Rick · Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:17 pm Post subject:

I personally do not like the freeze or drown method. Freezing is painful if done slowly in a normal freezer. Drowning is just too long of a process for the rodent to have to suffer through. Both are legally "inhumane" for labs in the US, and for me.

I have used the 'thump' and 'tail pull' method. Both work, but require some skill to get the method down and there is still always a few that don't go smoothly.

CO2 is indeed the most humane method, legally and in my opinion, of dispatching of a rodent.

I use a 20oz CO2 bottle (paintball) with a remote lead (coiled hose) which runs to a canister. The hose goes into the cover of the canister and there is a small hole at the top to vent air as it fills with CO2.

I put a few rodents in the canister and put the cover on. I turn on the CO2 slowly so it merely seeps into the canister. This way the rodents are comfortable. They do not panic or show any indication that they know whats happening. The CO2 has a narcotic effect on them and they start having a problem with balance, they start passing out, etc. At this point they feel little to no pain. I then turn up the CO2 more. The CO2 being heavier sinks to the bottom of the canister, displacing the breathable air which comes out the vent hole on the top. I then turn off the CO2 and put my finger over the vent. The body will convulse because breathing is automatic and not driven by thought. The rodents will then sufficate. This part may seem cruel, but technically the rodent is under a narcotic effect and not feeling pain. It's much like someone commiting suicide by sitting in a vehicle with the exhaust vented into the window. If it was horribly painful, no one would successfully commit suicide this way, once it got horribly painful, they would open the door and get out of the vehicle to find a better method.

Note: I do recommend CO2 for rodents, but not for you. Please do not try the 'vented exhaust' part of my statement at home unless you are a trained professional, a bill collector or a telemarketer.

Rick
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reptilefreak · Honored Member Joined: Feb 28, 2007 Posts: 196

RainbowParty · Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject:

he was making a funny, lol.
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reptilefreak · Honored Member Joined: Feb 28, 2007 Posts: 196

lol Yeah...I'm slow sometimes. I'm sick right now, so let's blame that. Looks like my parents won't be letting me breed rats here, but this will all come in handy next year when I move out.
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RehabRalphy · Banned Joined: Feb 01, 2006 Posts: 403 Location: Missouri

I still prefer the drowning method. Though it may seem "cruel" it doesn't hurt.