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Joined: May 16, 2007 Posts: 644 Location: Connecticut
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:40 pm Post subject: Blue Tegu Research
I'm trying to compile any and all information I can find on Blue Tegu's.
Feel free to add your own experiences.
I think alot of the info out there is related to them being imported from Columbia and assumed to be a version of the Columbian Tegu. This is obviously incorrect because the scalation virtually matches the Arg B&W.
I've heard from a reliable source (trying to confirm from a few other sources) that all of the Blue Tegu's in existence are related to the 6 Blue Tegus that were imported 6 to 7 years ago and bought by Ron St. Pierre. He has selectively bred them, but it is inevitable that a certain amount of inbreeding has occurred due to the limited gene pool. This has been said to have resulted in some birth defects and vision problems. Unfortunately the limited gene pool makes it very difficult to breed for desirable characteristics, like disposition.
Ron St. Pierre has told me they breed in the early summer, not the spring like reds and Arg. B&W. That would explain why the only Blue's available this year were advertised last month. I've heard they are hard to breed. That would explain why I've only seen 2 places offering them for sale, presuming they all came from the same clutch.
Please add your own knowledge (please confirm with a reputable breeder, not restate a care sheet from "ReptiDrone" or other "hear and repeat" web sites) and personal experiences.
List: their sex, where you got them, when they were hatched, what you fed them as babies, foods they eat as adults, food they won't eat, hibernation (yes/no/partial??), behavior, disposition, length, weight, color (pictures?), etc (add your own categories).
The more reliable information we can share, the more we will all understand about them. _________________ 1.1 Blue Tegu +21 EGGS, 1.0 Red Tegu, 0.1 B&W Arg. Tegu
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa, 0.1 Dumeril Boa, 1.0 Suriname Boa
1.2 Ball Pythons, 1.0 Coastal Carpet Python
0.1 Cuban Rock Iguana
2.1.3 Bearded Dragons, 1.0 Veiled Chameleon, 0.0.1 Tokay Gecko
Joined: Dec 04, 2006 Posts: 238 Location: California
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:20 am Post subject:
I'll have to find the link but there was a discusion on how its thought Blue tegu's are actully from Brazil and where smuggled into columbia and then shipped to the US, becuase Brazil has strict exporting laws. This is backed by the fact that a french photographer has taken pictures of wild blue tegus in Brazil
the first one is very compelling. Also there is a post where a few months back a person on kingsnake had a 52" male blue for sale i no longer have the pitures the guy sent me as my hard drive crashed but there is a memeber who bought a trio with a huge male that is 48" and the pictures are still active today and his looks BIG!!
As for my blues stats his still growing right now but he is white not blue, very friendly more like a dog then a cat he likes people. He just had his first birthday and is almost 40" long and is 5lbs.
Joined: May 16, 2007 Posts: 644 Location: Connecticut
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:48 am Post subject:
I've read that one about the French photographer. He will be visiting Bert (Agama) in the next week or so.
It's too bad the link inside the second article is dead. _________________ 1.1 Blue Tegu +21 EGGS, 1.0 Red Tegu, 0.1 B&W Arg. Tegu
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa, 0.1 Dumeril Boa, 1.0 Suriname Boa
1.2 Ball Pythons, 1.0 Coastal Carpet Python
0.1 Cuban Rock Iguana
2.1.3 Bearded Dragons, 1.0 Veiled Chameleon, 0.0.1 Tokay Gecko
Since the time of those discourses, some things have changed. The scientists A.S. Abe and D.de Andrade in Brasil imported some albino tegus from the US. According to several sources here, only the "blue tegu" line has ever produced albinos (chiefly due to their intense inbreeding), therefore these were assumed to be "blues". From their analysis, their conclusion was that, in the absence of genetic verification, the albino tegus they received were undoubtably what is currently recognized as Tupinambis merianae. It's not exactly the end of the discussion, genetic analysis has made greater progress in recent years and genetic bar coding has become cheaper and seen as a reliable means of delineating species. There's still the possibility that "blues" are something of an example of a cryptic species.
I love the look of blues and I just think they are soooo cool .
But now knowing that they are inbred, and to such an extent that there are birth defects such as albinos, over bites, under bites, and blindness kind of turns me off to ever buying one. does anyone have information on the extent of inbreeding in the blue tegu line?
As for telling tupinambis to keep going?.?. um have you read those two links and the post wars that were going on there? Nutty!!!! I think if there is any NEW developments let us know but as for having him go on like that?... Well I wont be held responsible when the poor guys hands fall off or ricks for that matter lol.
There needs to be extensive testing by scientists to determine once and for all wtf it is.
But Like I mentioned before if these beautiful little guys are being inbred to the point of cruelty thats wrong! And it should be dealt with.
Also I'm going to rant a little on the albino situation that comes from these blues. Are they not UV dependent? Proper UV comes from light right? Have you ever seen an albino human at the beach?lol No because being in the sun for a extended period of time is torture to them.!. So why would you breed an animal that needs UV light to stay alive and healthy yet is being pained by the light that it so desperately needs? _________________ Arg. B+W Tegu 1.0.0
You lock the door and throw away the key. There's someone in my head but its not me.
Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 972270 Location: Central Maine
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject:
Cowher wrote:
But Like I mentioned before if these beautiful little guys are being inbred to the point of cruelty thats wrong! And it should be dealt with.
How many blue tegus have you seen with genetic issues caused by inbreeding? None? I have never seen blues with genetic disorders related to sever inbreeding. There is talk about underbites, overbites, etc.. I have never seen genetic issues at all. I have seen nose rubs that appear to be over or under bites, but not caused by genetics.
I realize there was a fairly small group of animals originally obtained, but there is no proof or evidence that those animals were even related. This whole "albinos in blues are from sever inbreeding" is crap since albinos were produced in only a few seasons of breeding. This means that if all of the blues that Ron obtained were all directly related, that every single one carry the albino gene from the wild? If this is the case, why is the tegu market not flooded by albinos?
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Also I'm going to rant a little on the albino situation that comes from these blues. Are they not UV dependent? Proper UV comes from light right?
Actually, tegus require UVB. UVA is what causes the burns, not UVB.
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Have you ever seen an albino human at the beach?lol
Sure, we have beaches full of them.. but really.. how many albino people have you seen in your life anyways? None?
Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 972270 Location: Central Maine
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:00 pm Post subject:
Bobby doesn't keep, raise or breed blue tegus. He does not know other peoples breeding habits, record keeping methods, etc. He often has a hard time telling what is a blue and what is not, and he has asked me.
If you want to know if blues are severly inbred why not ask Ron St Pierre if he has any efforts to avoid close inbreeding? Ron or Stella would be the ones who know better than anyone else.
I am sure there is some inbreeding, just like there is with almost any other reptile out there. Take Bobby's "Chacoan Giants". He claims he is the only one with them and he only has a few. Will these not be highly inbred? Will he cross these to "normal" argentine tegus and still call them "Chacoan Giants" ?
There is always some inbreeding. When a new morph is found, inbreeding will be required to pinpoint the morph gene. For example, the albino gene in blue tegus, which some are trying to claim is from inbreeding. It's a morph gene, not from inbreeding.
DaveDragon, not sure I have much to say that already hasn't been said. As far as how many 'blues' I have studied, that's kind of a difficult question to address. If you mean how many I have worked with that can guaranteed have its lineage traced back to St.Pierre stock, I think about a dozen. If you want to include every tegu that someone has told me was a 'blue' (and for which I can assuredly guarantee their ancestry was no part of the St.Pierre line) I'd say hundreds. It's how I became aware of the 'blue' tegu myth: people kept telling me my tegus were 'blues' and asking why I was doing the kind of research I was on a species that hadn't been described and was so rare and expensive.
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How many blue tegus have you seen with genetic issues caused by inbreeding? None?
Well, for one, albinos are a genetic issue quite often related to inbreeding. Contrary to popular thought, albinism is not caused by a single solitary recessive gene and that gene only (one gene can cause it, but it can be one gene out of a choice of a dozen). Albinism can occur through recessive genes in a number of gene loci. If you cross an albino with recessive gene A with an albino with recessive gene B, for simplicity sake assuming all other genes involved are not recessive, none of the offspring will be albinos. However, if what you want to produce are albinos, then what is commonly done in the pet trade is to breed related albinos in order to ensure that you are only dealing with the one loci (usually either breeding offspring directly with each other or breeding the products of the original offspring with each other). This is inbreeding.
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I realize there was a fairly small group of animals originally obtained, but there is no proof or evidence that those animals were even related.
The actual numbers of the original "Mayflower" group I've heard have varied, NONE impress me with having genetic variance. Considering I've heard the St.Pierres quote different numbers to different sources, I'd say there's reason to be skeptical on exactly how many were in the original source. The largest number I've heard was 15. The lowest, and argued by people who supposedly know, are 4. I'm not saying either number is correct, only that the range does not inspire any concept of genetic diversity even assuming complete unrelatedness.
Whereas you say there is no proof of their relatedness, there is greater possibility they were related than that they were unrelated. First, they were not of varrying age, they were all hatchlings, indicating at the very least they were the same cohort, if not the same litter. If you consider how these animals were originally collected, it was not by some breeder who selected the ones that they had and assured they were unrelated, they were collected by someone scavenging from wild populations, likely a child. They did not likely go far and wide to get variety, they likely raided a nest and got the group from one source (try finding Pianka&Vitt's "Lizards" book, there's a tale of exactly that in there). I'd say the possibility of them all being unrelated is extremely thin.
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This means that if all of the blues that Ron obtained were all directly related, that every single one carry the albino gene from the wild? If this is the case, why is the tegu market not flooded by albinos?
Not true at all. Being related does not mean that they all carry the exact same recessive gene, only that the possibility that they carry it is greater (being directly related to your mother, if she has a recessive trait then there's only a 50% chance that you do as well unless it's tied to a sex chromosome). On the contrary, if there was only a small group to begin with, therefore meaning a restricted group with which to breed unrelateds (ie. cut your numbers in half), and that albinism is not guaranteed to be in the same gene in unrelated individuals, the fact that albinos were produced within a short time would increase the probability that these are related individuals.
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Actually, tegus require UVB. UVA is what causes the burns, not UVB.
'scuse us?!?!? UV radiation is devided up into the three ranges, UVA, UVB and UVC and ALL are potentially harmful. UVA has the least energy per photon and is the least destructive, while UVC has the greatest energy per photon and is the most destructive to living tissue, with UVB falling inbetween. UVA has been attributed to stimulating apetite and promoting healthy behaviours in reptiles, UVB is involved in the Vit.D3/calcium metabolic pathway. Both are good for your tegu, and both in too great of intensity can cause damage. You are more likely to get damage from UVB than from UVA of the same intensity, and it further depends on the exactly wavelength.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet
Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 972270 Location: Central Maine
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject:
tupinambis wrote:
Well, for one, albinos are a genetic issue quite often related to inbreeding. Contrary to popular thought, albinism is not caused by a single solitary recessive gene and that gene only (one gene can cause it, but it can be one gene out of a choice of a dozen).
Albinoism is commonly believed and taught to be a recessively inherited condition, which means that you have inherited two albinism genes. Until it's proven and taught otherwise, it will still be the common fact.
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I'd say the possibility of them all being unrelated is extremely thin.
I did not say they were or were not all related. I am claiming there is no way of knowing if they all came from the same clutch or not. If you are in a region in Argentina and you are running around spot to spot grabbing basking lizards or setting live traps, there is no way of knowing.
Knowing that each breeder of CB tegus has a limited amount of tegus to start with, there is limited diversity in all of the bloodlines. Bert imported breeders. Ron purchased imported breeders. Bobby and I have breeders from both Bert and Ron. As such, we all have limited diversity unless we start importing fresh bloodlines. That is simple fact. Some inbreeding is acceptable, or even required, within this hobby.
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UV radiation is devided up into the three ranges, UVA, UVB and UVC and ALL are potentially harmful.
I concede this point. I did further reading and I do agree.
how many albino people have you seen in your life anyways? None?
Actually I've seen a few. My cousin's roomate in college was an albino. The most famous albino people that I can think of off the top of my head are rock musican Edgar Winter (an albino of caucasian decent) and "King Yellowman" a reggae star albino of african decent. Also, if you're really interested in the subject, try googling the phrase, "albino people" and you'll find all kinds of information on the subject.
Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 972270 Location: Central Maine
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:21 pm Post subject:
Lifebe4insanity wrote:
Actually I've seen a few. My cousin's roomate in college was an albino. The most famous albino people that I can think of off the top of my head are rock musican Edgar Winter (an albino of caucasian decent) and "King Yellowman" a reggae star albino of african decent. Also, if you're really interested in the subject, try googling the phrase, "albino people" and you'll find all kinds of information on the subject.
I guess my point is that just because I don't see albino people at the beach, doesn't mean much because I don't see albino people hanging out inside a mall either.
I bet if you contact Edgar Winter or King Yellowman and ask them, they will tell you there was no sever inbreeding in their families past.
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 1164 Location: panamacity florida
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:08 pm Post subject:
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"Rick"= Bobby doesn't keep, raise or breed blue tegus. He does not know other peoples breeding habits, record keeping methods, etc. He often has a hard time telling what is a blue and what is not, and he has asked me.
This is the exact reason I have never/nor will I ever breed them. I know they were not imported by Ron and the truth behind them, you know the truth as well but choose to let everyone know.
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If you want to know if blues are severly inbred why not ask Ron St Pierre if he has any efforts to avoid close inbreeding? Ron or Stella would be the ones who know better than anyone else.
Ask him the truth on snows too, however I doubt you will get an answer.
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I am sure there is some inbreeding, just like there is with almost any other reptile out there. Take Bobby's "Chacoan Giants". He claims he is the only one with them and he only has a few. Will these not be highly inbred? Will he cross these to "normal" argentine tegus and still call them "Chacoan Giants" ?
Some inbreeding? Rick, tell the truth!!
As for my Chacoans. No they will not, I have more morals than you, you do not care about it at all, or you would not be trying to cover up the facts. I have a 2.2 pair of adults. I held back 3 females from one pair, and three males from the other pair for future breebing. So watch what you are saying and leave my name out of your garbage Rick.
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There is always some inbreeding. When a new morph is found, inbreeding will be required to pinpoint the morph gene. For example, the albino gene in blue tegus, which some are trying to claim is from inbreeding. It's a morph gene, not from inbreeding.
Rick
You bet, that is why I breed normals and keep them pure and free of inbreeding.
The Blue tegu’s origin is scientifically unknown, however thought to be (Tupinambis merianae) by many, including myself. This would be a different local, or subspecies of the Tupinambis merianae. It is said that they can be found in Brazil, and Colombia, however there has been photos taken of them in La Pampa, as well as French Guiana. This would be an area many miles apart and would suggest a very large range. Some of the common names for the Blues are Blue Tegu, Powder Blue Tegu, Blue Albino Tegu, Albino Tegu, and Snow Tegu.
I do not agree with albinism in reptiles that require ultraviolet lighting, in my opinion this is nothing but the creation of a very cruel morph. Albinism is well known for being less tolerant to bright lights, it is torturing these animals to keep them alive. I do not have a problem with nocturnal animals, such as geckos, and snakes with the albino traits due to them lacking the need for lighting.
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The Blue tegus that are available in the pet trade are not animals that I desire as a breeder, or promote as pets. They are very inbred, due to the very small gene pool that was first imported into the United States. The original animals were said to be a very small number of six hatchlings. These were imported as Tupinambis teguixin, but were found by the importer to be unlike the normal Tupinambis teguixin they were received before. This makes these animals very prone to undesirable traits, thus the albinism, toes that do not bend, over bites and under bites, also blindness has been found to be very present in these animals. For a few years now there has been very light colored albino blue tegus sold as snow tegus. The snows do not exist in this species, but rather a very light albino. There has never been any Melanistic tegus to produce this morph, it has been found when breeding these false snows that they produce albinos, rather then snows. There have never been any other Blue tegus imported into the United States except these very few; this is something to keep in mind when choosing your animal.
You know this is true Rick, so do tell why you have heald back these facts. Also explain to everyone why I no longer support your sites, do tell the truth. The tegus you call Chacoans were sold as normals last year, when you found out I had Chacoans you changed the name and jacked the price. It is the exact same pair as last year, Correct?
There is much more to the story, we both know this.
Albinoism is commonly believed and taught to be a recessively inherited condition, which means that you have inherited two albinism genes. Until it's proven and taught otherwise, it will still be the common fact.
Wrong. Albinism is taught as the inheritance of two recessive alleles, and those alleles have to be of the same gene. THAT is the fact.
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kind of turns me off to ever buying one. does anyone have information on the extent of inbreeding in the blue tegu line?
