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Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 972270 Location: Central Maine
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject:
tupinambis wrote:
Quote:
Albinoism is commonly believed and taught to be a recessively inherited condition, which means that you have inherited two albinism genes. Until it's proven and taught otherwise, it will still be the common fact.
Wrong. Albinism is taught as the inheritance of two recessive alleles, and those alleles have to be of the same gene. THAT is the fact.
"two genes" or "two alleles within a gene".. the point is the same. Albinism is a genetic trait. You can all it a mutation, a disease, etc.. but it is not commonly believed or taught to be from inbreeding.
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 1164 Location: panamacity florida
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject:
Rick wrote:
tupinambis wrote:
Quote:
Albinoism is commonly believed and taught to be a recessively inherited condition, which means that you have inherited two albinism genes. Until it's proven and taught otherwise, it will still be the common fact.
Wrong. Albinism is taught as the inheritance of two recessive alleles, and those alleles have to be of the same gene. THAT is the fact.
"two genes" or "two alleles within a gene".. the point is the same. Albinism is a genetic trait. You can all it a mutation, a disease, etc.. but it is not commonly believed or taught to be from inbreeding.
Rick
But it is true, it is caused by the exact same animals being bred together!!
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 1164 Location: panamacity florida
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject:
The six hatchlings that were imported were most likely siblings. Thus, all Blues in the U.S. being from one pair of adults. I doubt that the hatchlings came from different clutches.
Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 972270 Location: Central Maine
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:55 pm Post subject:
Bobby,
You do not want to breed blues because they were imported in limited numbers. Well how many of the Chacoans did Ron originally buy from importers? How limited is your Chacoan gene pool?
You claim that the blue tegu is merely a T.merianae. Well, if that's the case, than look at all of the potential outbreeding that can be done.
I have held back no information about the few blues that were imported, or that Ron purchased them. I have no idea what you are talking about. I believe that subject was one of the first that Colin (tupinambis) and I had on these forums.
I did sell my white headed tegus and my normal argentines for the same price the season before last, but due to many people specifically requesting the white headed tegus and the fact that I only have 2.2 white heads I did indeed sell them for a little more. That's supply and demand.
Can I prove exactly what region my white heads came from? Nope. Can you? Nope, We need to reply on Ron's word, which you regard with little faith.
Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 972270 Location: Central Maine
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:02 pm Post subject:
VARNYARD wrote:
But it is true, it is caused by the exact same animals being bred together!!
What you are overlooking is that the albino gene in tegus came from the original blues that were imported. As such, they must have been severly inbreeding in the wild? All albino people come from families with sever inbreeding? Come on, it's not that simple. I have heard stories of people in the past severly inbreeding in the woods/hicks, causing mentally retarded children, but I have never heard of a sister/brother or two cousins producing an albino child.
If it was that simple why would anyone pay a grand or two for an albino ball python when they can just inbreed a normal ball python with its own sibling for a few seasons and get an albino.
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 1164 Location: panamacity florida
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:28 pm Post subject:
Quote:
"Rick"= Bobby,
You do not want to breed blues because they were imported in limited numbers. Well how many of the Chacoans did Ron originally buy from importers? How limited is your Chacoan gene pool?
Not true, and you know this. Why are you acting like you did not know all of this? You did!!
The Blues are all siblings from one pair, more than likely, unlike my true Chacoans. You know that I am breeding very high whites for future breeding to my Chacoans, but that will be in six years before they will need to be crossed out. You knew this as well. The 3.3 offspring in three years will still be pure; the offspring from them in 6 years will be crossed with very high whites.
Quote:
You claim that the blue tegu is merely a T.merianae. Well, if that's the case, than look at all of the potential outbreeding that can be done.
Why would I want to breed these? If you cross them with the normal colors, then they would still be very messed up due to the fact the parent that was inbred.
Why not breed tegus that have no part of this bad blood in them? That is what I choose to work with.
Quote:
I have held back no information about the few blues that were imported, or that Ron purchased them. I have no idea what you are talking about. I believe that subject was one of the first that Colin (tupinambis) and I had on these forums.
Well you sure don't discuss it much, many of the people that have bought them do not know about it. Why would you hold this back as a honest seller?
Quote:
I did sell my white headed tegus and my normal argentines for the same price the season before last, but due to many people specifically requesting the white headed tegus and the fact that I only have 2.2 white heads I did indeed sell them for a little more. That's supply and demand.
So it was ok for you to change the name and jack the price on them?
Quote:
Can I prove exactly what region my white heads came from? Nope. Can you? Nope, You need to reply on Ron's word, which is regard with little faith.
Rick
You have none like mine, I showed you five baby Chacoans that I produced at Daytona, none of them were anything like what you are now selling as Chacoans, the same babies from the same pair as last season that were sold as normal.
The proof is in the pudding, look at mine, and then look at yours.
Rick,
your argument shows you do not clearly understand genetics.
Quote:
"two genes" or "two alleles within a gene".. the point is the same
Seriously, go tell this to a geneticist, I'd love to see the lecture that comes from it. Alleles make up genes, you have to have two alleles for each gene. An albino has to have two recessive alleles on the same gene. However, there are more than one gene involved in the production and expression of melanin. Disrupt any one of those genes with a double recessive and you have an albino. However, if one albino has one gene double recessive, and another albino has a different gene double recessive, they will not produce albinistic offspring.
Now, without any question, some genes are more typical for recessiveness than others, but the fact that there are different types of albinism goes to show that there are more than one gene loci involved. Inbreeding does not create albinism, that seems to be your point. However, the chance of two completely unrelated individuals having the exact same gene loci recessive are low, where as related individuals will be a near guarantee.
The chance of unrelated wildtypes breeding and producing albino offspring is something in the range of 1 in 100,000. It is completely against the odds the number of albino offspring that have turned up to be purely by chance.
No, I never said that inbreeding produces albinism, and no, it is not taught that inbreeding produces albinism. However, recessive genes are usually not expressed unless they are fundamentally prominent in the gene pool. In wildtypes, recessive genes are rare, nature selects against them. However, if a group is related, the chances of them having a recessive allele in common are quite high. Breed these related individuals and you have a greater chance of producing albino offspring. The number of albinos that have come from the 'blue' tegu line would indicate that this is indeed the scenario.
Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 972270 Location: Central Maine
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject:
Bobby,
You did not specifically answer this..
How many Chacoan's did Ron start with?
Are your Chacoan's from Ron's stock?
Can you prove your "Chacoans" are from Chaco?
If you cross your "Chacoans" with normal high whites, they will be 1/2 "Chacoan" and you will slowly breed the regional traits right out of them.
Where did the "six year" figure come to start breeding in normal 'high white' stock into your Chacoans?
Blues have been sold by Ron for about 8 years and there have not been that many produced (as is evident by the hard time people are having getting their hands on blues) so how would that differ? If blues are T.merianae, and you bred a blue with a b/w and bred the young back to the blue to get nre blood, and you did the occassionally, it would be no different than what you suggest doing with the "Chacoans".
As far as my white headed tegus, I did not 'change the names' any more than I did with the blues when I seperated them into powder blue tegus, platinum blue tegus and high white blues.
To be honost, my plans are to sell "White Headed Tegus" and "Blue Tegus" next season. I have already sold many of my dark headed tegus. I do not plan to call my white headed tegus "chacoans" because, like you, I can not prove what region that came from so I am going to just name them for what I can prove, that they are white headed and I will focus on that.
You claim that your "chacoans" are not the same chacoans that Ron was selling, that yours are unique.. so where to hell did they come from? You already told me in the past that you had no idea and only called them Chacoans because Ron stated Chacons can get larger and that Bert told you that the more northernly you go in Argentinia the larger the T.merianae get.
So, my question is...
How many Chacoan's did Ron start with? 2? 4? 6? How limited if your Chacoan diversity?
What is the difference of breeding your chacoans for 6 years and then adding normal T.merianae blood or breeding new T.merianae blood into the blue tegus if, as you state, they are T.merianae anyways?
Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 972270 Location: Central Maine
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:54 pm Post subject:
Rick wrote:
Blues have been sold by Ron for about 8 years and there have not been that many produced (as is evident by the hard time people are having getting their hands on blues)
Let me change that. He didn't produce blues this year or last. So, that's your magic "six years" so the blues are ready for new blood, right?
Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 972270 Location: Central Maine
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject:
VARNYARD wrote:
No, imo they should not bred.
Let me say this one more time, the six first blues were likely brother and sisters.
It's possible that the few Chacoans that Ron started with were collected from the same nest too. What is the likelihood that several 'unique' (chacoan) tegus were imported at the same time and from the same locale and they are not related? The same goes for the Chacoan that goes for the Blue tegu.
Joined: May 16, 2007 Posts: 550 Location: Connecticut
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:11 pm Post subject:
Rick wrote:
Rick wrote:
Blues have been sold by Ron for about 8 years and there have not been that many produced (as is evident by the hard time people are having getting their hands on blues)
Let me change that. He didn't produce blues this year or last.
Finally some useful information!!!
You guys are ruining my thread!
I realize the original 6 Blue Tegu's imported were probably from the same clutch. But, Rick as you say, it's the law of supply and demand. If there's an interest in something, someone will fill the need. I've had numerous requests for a Blue hatchling If I ever had a mate for her. So I'm going to give it a shot. I'd just like to learn more about their background (there doesn't seem to be much since they're all related) and peoples experiences in keeping them. And I'd like some technical info from tupinambis. _________________ 1.1.0 Bearded Dragons, 1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon, 0.0.1 Tokay Gecko
1.1.0 Ball Pythons, 0.1.0 Brazilian Rainbow Boa, 1.0.0 Suriname Boa, 0.1.0 Dumeril Boa
0.1.0 B&W Argentine Tegu, 1.1.0 Blue Tegu, 1.0.0 Red Tegu
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 1164 Location: panamacity florida
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject:
Quote:
"Rick"= Bobby,
You did not specifically answer this..
How many Chacoan's did Ron start with?
Are your Chacoan's from Ron's stock?
Can you prove your "Chacoans" are from Chaco?
Is this about me or my animals? IMO, Ron never got the chance to breed them.
Quote:
If you cross your "Chacoans" with normal high whites, they will be 1/2 "Chacoan" and you will slowly breed the regional traits right out of them.
Where did the "six year" figure come to start breeding in normal 'high white' stock into your Chacoans?
Yes, 9 years down the road. It will take 3 years for these to mature, then bred together, then three more years for the offspring they produce to breed. So don't twist this into your way of thinking.
Please do stop with the playing dumb.
Quote:
Blues have been sold by Ron for about 8 years and there have not been that many produced (as is evident by the hard time people are having getting their hands on blues) so how would that differ? If blues are T.merianae, and you bred a blue with a b/w and bred the young back to the blue to get nre blood, and you did the occassionally, it would be no different than what you suggest doing with the "Chacoans".
The pure blues are not pure but rather very inbred, big difference. I am very much against inbreeding, but you seem to think it is just fine. That should tell everyone where the morals are.
Quote:
As far as my white headed tegus, I did not 'change the names' any more than I did with the blues when I seperated them into powder blue tegus, platinum blue tegus and high white blues.
Wrong!!! It was the exact same pair both years.
Quote:
To be honost, my plans are to sell "White Headed Tegus" and "Blue Tegus" next season. I have already sold many of my dark headed tegus. I do not plan to call my white headed tegus "chacoans" because, like you, I can not prove what region that came from so I am going to just name them for what I can prove, that they are white headed and I will focus on that.
It is not like me, I do not change the name to fit the game.
Quote:
You claim that your "chacoans" are not the same chacoans that Ron was selling, that yours are unique.. so where to hell did they come from? You already told me in the past that you had no idea and only called them Chacoans because Ron stated Chacons can get larger and that Bert told you that the more northernly you go in Argentinia the larger the T.merianae get.
So, my question is...
How many Chacoan's did Ron start with? 2? 4? 6? How limited if your Chacoan diversity?
I did not get mine from Ron as you well know, but you do not have anything even close to them. You want to turn this into an attack on me? Then why don't you tell everyone everything? So many things hidden here, correct?
Quote:
What is the difference of breeding your chacoans for 6 years and then adding normal T.merianae blood or breeding new T.merianae blood into the blue tegus if, as you state, they are T.merianae anyways?
Rick
Once again, I have already stated I will not breed bad blood to try to make it good. I will keep mine pure and free from this, bottom line. One more thing, if Ron bred these as you suggest, then where are the offspring. Show me pictures of more creamy babies that were not bred by me.
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