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Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 972270 Location: Central Maine
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:25 pm Post subject:
Bobby,
It's not an attack on you. You want to go off about Ron inbreeding blues and how it's immoral to breed them, yet in fact Ron has been breeding "Chacoans" for many years. He stopped breeding them and sold the handful of breeders he had. In the following year you purchased 2.2 Chacoans from a reseller. Where did these Chacoans comes from? How was Ron selling Chacoans if he never bred Chacoans?
Seems to me, you are being a bit dishonest if you are trying to claim Ron never bred Chacoan's, yet you have his breeders and then claim yours are unique. Come on Bobby..
Fact is that Ron was breeding Chacoans from a few that he obtained. You got some of his breeders after he stopped breeding them. You are trying to claim that yours are Chacoans and the ones that Ron was selling prior are not really Chacoans?
When I start posting the obvious you start to attack me and then claim I am attacking you?
Rick, I've said it before, I'm saying it again. Your strawman arguments are nonsense, please stop putting words in my mouth and insisting I said something I didn't. I NEVER said inbreeding creates albinism as you are so want to insist I said. Those are YOUR words, not mine. What I have said and tried to explain over and over, is inbreeding increases the chances of expression of albinism.
To DaveDragon, sorry for derailing your thread, there are some pretty passionate stances by some people and it seems to always come out. What sort of technical information are you looking for?
Joined: May 16, 2007 Posts: 554 Location: Connecticut
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:40 pm Post subject:
tupinambis wrote:
To DaveDragon, sorry for derailing your thread, there are some pretty passionate stances by some people and it seems to always come out. What sort of technical information are you looking for?
Hey, it's a public forum. Anything can happen.
I'm just looking for info on peoples experiences with them. You have clinical experience vs. everyone else's hobby or business experiences. You have a different point of view. Another set of eyes is always valuable when searching for something. _________________ 0.1 B&W Argentine Tegu, 1.1 Blue Tegu (29 EGGS IN THE INCUBATOR!!), 1.0 Red Tegu
1.2 Ball Pythons, 0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa, 1.0 Suriname Boa, 0.1 Dumeril Boa
2.1.3 Bearded Dragons, 1.0 Veiled Chameleon, 0.0.1 Tokay Gecko, 0.1 Cuban Rock Iguan
Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 972270 Location: Central Maine
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:50 pm Post subject:
tupinambis wrote:
Rick, I've said it before, I'm saying it again. Your strawman arguments are nonsense, please stop putting words in my mouth and insisting I said something I didn't. I NEVER said inbreeding creates albinism as you are so want to insist I said. Those are YOUR words, not mine. What I have said and tried to explain over and over, is inbreeding increases the chances of expression of albinism.
Your comments are there, as are mine. I was asking if anyone had any proof that blues are so inbred they are producing genetic issues and you started in that Albinism is related to inbreeding. You can play around with words, but it's right there. We can drop this discussion and allow others to make up their own minds.
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 1164 Location: panamacity florida
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject:
Quote:
"Rick"= Bobby,
It's not an attack on you. You want to go off about Ron inbreeding blues and how it's immoral to breed them, yet in fact Ron has been breeding "Chacoans" for many years. He stopped breeding them and sold the handful of breeders he had. In the following year you purchased 2.2 Chacoans from a reseller. Where did these Chacoans comes from? How was Ron selling Chacoans if he never bred Chacoans?
No, that is just it, he has not been breeding Chacoans, but rather white heads as stated on his site right now.
Quote:
Seems to me, you are being a bit dishonest if you are trying to claim Ron never bred Chacoan's, yet you have his breeders and then claim yours are unique. Come on Bobby..
White heads, not Chacoans. Show me your creams????? Or his?????
Quote:
Fact is that Ron was breeding Chacoans from a few that he obtained. You got some of his breeders after he stopped breeding them. You are trying to claim that yours are Chacoans and the ones that Ron was selling prior are not really Chacoans?
No fact there, no facts there at all.
Quote:
When I start posting the obvious you start to attack me and then claim I am attacking you?
Rick.
You brought my name into this, now that you have you can buck up with the truth.
Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 972270 Location: Central Maine
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:17 pm Post subject:
Ron has been selling them as Chacoan White Heads for years. You can deny that if you want to, but anyone who has been in the hobby for a few years knows that.
Ron stated on his website "The White Headed or Chacoan morph is a naturally occurring color morph in this species northerly range."
I am dropping this discussion as it is getting no where.
My tegus, are the same as what Ron was selling as Chacoans, but to remove all confusion I am dropping the whole "Chacoan" name. I will be focusing on my White Headed Tegus and on my Blue Tegus.
You can sell yours as "Chacoans" just like Ron was even though you have no idea where they came from. Heck, I might even breed the "Chacoan" hatchling you sent me with my White Heads in the future and see what happens.
At this point Bobby, I will let this discussion end and I wish you luck on all of your future endeavors.
Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 972270 Location: Central Maine
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:49 pm Post subject:
Bobby was just banned from this forum. Not for the differing opinion, but for allowing the differing opinion to go to far and making untrue and liable statements against me. I invited him to make the posts on the BOI (fauna) and to try to prove the accusation where I can publicly defend myself.
You know rick, removing posts that are not favorable to you is not really cool.
It's an abuse of power.
You said, flat out over on Fauan, that you had produced SNOW Tegus. I posted the statemeny YOU made here, and you deleted not only that post but the other one I had made asking if YOU had any proof of YOUR claim that YOU had produced snows.
It seems that an honest man would have left my posts up and answered the question there.
Bad form rick, VERY bad form to cover your butt by removing my posts. _________________ When I have finished trampling the flowers, the hooves of my horse are more fragrant. Li Kao
Am I missing something?
2.2 Chacoan is not going to be inbred?
but 6 to 12 blues are inbreeding.
The 2.2 Chacoan are possibly from one clutch possibly not?
The 6-12 blues are possibly from one clutch, possibly not?
I don't get it. I'm obviously missing something.
For blues, I like the way blues look, but I can't seem to find blues available that are actually blue. I don't want to get a "blue" that looks like a normal Arg B&W.
All the people I've talked to say blues act like Arg B&Ws. But theo ne blue male I've seen at a show(not the ideal way to see any animal) was pretty mean. All the people I've seen talking about "snow" blue tegus say that "snow" tegus are the same as "albino" tegus. So I gave up on finding a "snow" and further, didn't want one, until I find proof that a "snow" is healthy with proper lighting and such.
I feel for you Dave, it's hard to find facts, and harder to find a real blue tegu. _________________ Raw Bear with Salt tastes like Oysters.
Joined: May 16, 2007 Posts: 554 Location: Connecticut
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:53 pm Post subject:
Wolf-hound wrote:
I feel for you Dave, it's hard to find facts, and harder to find a real blue tegu.
No problem. I have a confirmed male & female Blue. I'm hoping to breed in the spring. If it happens, it happens. If not, that's OK. _________________ 0.1 B&W Argentine Tegu, 1.1 Blue Tegu (29 EGGS IN THE INCUBATOR!!), 1.0 Red Tegu
1.2 Ball Pythons, 0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa, 1.0 Suriname Boa, 0.1 Dumeril Boa
2.1.3 Bearded Dragons, 1.0 Veiled Chameleon, 0.0.1 Tokay Gecko, 0.1 Cuban Rock Iguan
A bit of info about the "snow" tegu morph. Bobby keeps insisting that a snow tegu is (or should be) a combination of the albino morph and a melanistic blue tegu. I just wanted to clear up the fact that Ron NEVER made the claim that this was how the snow tegu was created. It is true that a snow corn snake, or a snow boa are created by combining the albino and melanistic morphs. However, the snow leopard geckos have no albino in them whatsoever. Yet, they're still called "snows". A blizzard corn snake and a blizzard leopard gecko are not created the same way either. Yet they're both still called "blizzards". The reason? Because terms like "snow", "sunglow", "blizzard", etc are not scientific descriptions of morphs. They are simply marketing created terms and can be applied in different ways. The truth about snow tegus is that they are albinos that are different from the original albino tegus. And that's all that Ron ever claimed they were. If you've ever seen in person a real snow tegu next to a regular albino blue, it's easy to see the difference. The regular albino retains a fair amount of dark pigment. Where as the snow tegu does not. The snow tegu is born lighter and stays lighter than the regular albinos. Keep in mind that not every morph out there works the same way. And some work in very odd ways that take time to figure out. Take a look at the way the "ultramel" or some of the other odd morphs of corn snakes work for example. Anyway, I just wanted to take a minute to explain to people that what Bobby is trying to say a "snow" tegu is, is just his opinion of what HE thinks it's supposed to be. His description is NOT what anyone has EVER claimed a snow tegu to be.
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