argentine and columbian?

darkangel · Member Joined: Feb 16, 2005 Posts: 63 Location: nottingham

can both types breed ? as i just brought a female columbian, there both getting on ok together just wanted to check?

Brisamen · Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 5:45 am Post subject:

Dont think so. Argentine and columbian are 2 different spiecies...
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1.0.0 T.rufescens
0.1.0 T.merianae
1.0.0 Testudo horsfieldii
1.0.0 Stenodactylus sthenodactylus
0.0.1 Ceratophrys ornata
0.0.1 Geocholone elegans
0.0.1 Python regius
2.0.0 Mustela Putorius Furo
0.1.0 Bouvier des flandres

ForkedTongue · Member Joined: Apr 12, 2005 Posts: 65

True they are two different species, but reds and blues breed and they are different species.

The way breeders are doing things these days, we're gonna have tegu/burmese python crosses soon

Rick · Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 12:17 am Post subject:

Colombian tegus and the Argentine tegus are very different species, there have been no reproduction between the two species, but who knows what is and isn't possible. I'd "guess" that they could 'breed' but not produce young.

A totally different subject, but one of real interest to me is the blue tegu. Let me state only the fact that I know.. Red tegus and blue tegus are not very far apart.. And we can't really say they are different species until we technically know what species the blue tegu actually is.

Ron St. Pierres states that the blue tegu is T.teguixin (Colombian) based on the origin of his original shipment, but admits that he doesn't actually have the knowledge of credentials be sure of this.

We can tell by the scientific criteria as well as skin patterns that it's not a T.teguixin. There are no sub-species of T.teguixin listed in any scientific documentation, and since we know it's not a T.teguixin.. the blue tegu needs to be one of the other 6 tegu species. Out of those other 6 tegu species only two others may be legally sold into the pet trade. So, the blue better be either a T.merianea & T.rufescens or it's illegal for the pet trade.

Note: The problem is that people who import and sell blue tegus can't claim the blue tegu is anything except T.teguixin, because the only tegu legally exportable from Colombia is the T.teguixin. So if the blue tegu isn't a T.teguixin, then it's being illegally exported. For legal reasons those people who sell 'blue tegus' MUST claim it is a T.teguixin or admit involvement in illegal activities. For more info on blue tegus see these links...

http://thetegu.com/contentid-24.html
http://thetegu.com/contentid-19.html

Rick
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Sisco Reptiles - Proud Breeder of the Tamest & Most Social Tegus. See www.SiscoReptiles.com

ForkedTongue · Member Joined: Apr 12, 2005 Posts: 65

Well, my opinion (and it is only my opinion) is that we really don't know jack. My opinions come from working with Arg B&Ws, Reds, Blues, and Col B&Ws.

I don't know what you mean when you say Reds and Blues are not that far apart. Do you mean geographically? As of this date I am comfortable in saying that blues and the reds are a different species, but that's just me. Maybe that will change in years to come, but I seriously doubt it. I really haven't had that much success with breeding the blues but I really haven't tried that much even though I have been keeping them since 99-00. I do like them very much...I just don't think they like me sometimes

Did Ron tell you that the blue tegu is T. Teguixin. From conversations that I have had with him it seems he really doen't know, hence the sp.

I also don't think that the blue has to be one of the other 6 species. Just my thoughts.

Draken · Member Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 14 Location: San Diego

I agree with Rick completely as far as blue tegus not being T. Teguixin, there is just no way they can be. It is my opinion that blue tegus are in fact their own species based on many things such as adult size, meristics, even their diet (though no one really knows what the diet of a wild blue tegu is.) Now as far as T. Rufescens and blues are concerned I believe they are two separate species with a very close evolutionary ancestor. I will use the Galapagos iguanas as an example. Though there are several species of iguana on the Galapagos they all, most likely, came from a common ancestor. It was recently discovered that the marine iguanas had successfully mated with the land iguanas to produce a hybrid (it is not yet known whether or not this animal is able to reproduce however.) That being said, I think that at some point the common ancestor of the red and blue tegu branched off to become the animals as we know them today. Though at first glance they appear to be very different, the same is true with the Galapagos iguanas, they remained close enough to be able to reproduce. I am by far no expert in these things but I though I would share my opinion on this. Until someone with many more pieces of paper than I have hanging on my wall that say "I R SMART" can tell us what blues actually are, anything I say is just speculation =)

Rick · Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 10:38 pm Post subject:

ForkedTongue · Member Joined: Apr 12, 2005 Posts: 65

Rick,

Are blue tegus still being imported from Columbia? Are you saying that people who sell blue tegus in the pet trade, who claim them to be T.T. ssp, are jusy saying that to avoid any criminal liability?

In regard to reds and blues breeding: It is difficult for me to say that because they breed we have to assume that thay are closely related. I know that may seem silly to you but I have seen some crazy hybrids completely unrelated (or so we assume) and just because two reptiles breed and produce offspring doesn't mean they are classified together.

I guess it brings me back to my original point that we really don't know whats going on. When I got my first two Arg B&W's they weren't Merianae they were calling them Teguixin. That changed not to long ago. I mean people are breeding kings and corn snakes, milk snakes and cornsnakes, rat snakes and whatever. These snakes have different genus' and come from completely different parts of the world, but they breed and produce.

But I do agree that no one has really stepped up to the plate on these issues. Maybe we should start a committee

Rick · Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 2:18 pm Post subject:

ForkedTongue · Member Joined: Apr 12, 2005 Posts: 65

Understand that I am not saying that the blue is a T.t. I am saying "who the hell knows". I am still hung up on this importing thing. Are you saying that after those 10 original imports that Ron got back in 1995, there were more that he or other people got?

Rick · Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 5:33 pm Post subject:

TEGUSFORYOU · Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 5:40 am Post subject: cross breeding tegus

well i just had to put this in the mix i just got a pair of argentine black and whites adults and awsome,now seems the fellow i got them from and a blue also in the cage and he was seen mating with the female shes gravid so we may have another hybrid on my hands cant wait to see what happens.i will keep updates on this cause i know you guys and gals cant wait for a new hybrid lol if they hatch and dont have green im in luck lol going to call them brusers black and blues lmao

Rick · Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: cross breeding tegus

tupinambis · Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:33 pm Post subject:

Ah, Rick, you knew I'd eventually have to get around to giving my two cents on this topic.

All of the scientists and herpetologists I've met who are familiar with the "blue tegu" scenario (including some of the individuals responsible for describing or "discovering" some of the tegu species) have said, when shown a picture of a "blue", that it is Tupinambis merianae. The South American herpetologists claim it is a common black-nose colour morph found in the northern ranges of T.merianae's distribution.

With respect to relatedness, there are two main groups of tegus within the genus Tupinambis - the northern or non-hibernating group which includes T.teguixin & T. longilineus, and the southern or hibernating group which includes T.rufescens, T.duseni & T.merianae. It is unclear at this time exactly where T.quadrilineatus resides in the two-group scheme, but current evidence points to it belonging with the northern, non-hibernating group. According to Fitzgerald, et al., 1999, on the basis of molecular phylogenetics, T.rufescens & T.duseni are more closely related to each other than to T.merianae.

If you're waiting for scientists to finally clear up the "blue" tegu mystery, well, I wouldn't hold my breath. Unfortunately, it basically isn't worth their time. Why? First, money. It is EXTREMELY unlikely any science funding institution is going to supply the funds to figure out exactly what species someone's pet is. Considering the rather sizeable costs involved in running and maintaining gene sequencers and such, it's also equally unlikely a lab will work on the concept out of interest's sake. Whereas many hobbyists would like to know, they tend to bawk and backpeddle when they find out the cost to run Spike's DNA. Second, faith vs. fact. I apologize to anyone I may offend by saying this, but a majority of hobbyists come across like religious fundamentalists. Some hobbyists have their beliefs, they have a pair of Columbians, a pair of "blues" and a pair of Argentinian B&Ws and they KNOW the "blues" aren't the same, despite the fact that a researcher may have worked with hundreds if not thousands of individuals in each species and has a better grasp of the diversity present within the species. If someone has faith, all the fact in the world doesn't make any difference, so it's a waste of time trying in the first place. Third, recognition. Unfortunately, in science, the basic precept of publish-or-parish exists, meaning if you don't produce a lot of publications, you lose your job. To make it worse, it can't be just any publication, it has to matter in the eyes of employers. Most of those publishers have certain standards. An article on the species designation of an ecclectic pet is not likely to be published in something that matters to the scientist. Whereas it would likely be accepted in Reptiles Magazine, the researcher wouldn't get "credit" for it on his/her publication list, or conversely, the same article would likely not get accepted in Herpetological Review which would contribute to his/her career.

The success or failure of breeding between individuals is hugely erroneous in designating a species. If a black human male and a white human female failed to produce offspring, I think we can all imagine the outrage people would have if you deemed this as sufficient grounds to declare blacks and caucasians as different species. Tegus are the same as humans, they are biological entities that can have diseases and reproductive disfunction. There are MANY reasons why a mating may be unsuccessful. They all need to be discounted before jumping on the incompatible species wagon.

My opinion is that "blues" are T.merianae. All the tegus I've had that people tell me are "blues" have all come from confirmed T.merianae parents. That being said, I will acknowledge that what is classified as T.merianae is a very polymorphic group with a lot of diversity. It may indeed be the case that upon further investigation there are distinct groups within the species. Whether these can be called new species or just subspecies is yet to be determined, or whether they are even reliably distinct in the first place.