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Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:16 pm Post subject: Twitching Tegu???? HELP!!! PLZ
Hi
I picked up a red tegu (2.5 foot) 2-3 months ago and he has stopped eating and twitches (whole body) I have heard that lack of calcium causes twitching throughout the body. I want to bring it to the vet but the only vet I trust is 45 min drive away and until my dad is fully convinced that he is sick he won’t bring me to the vet. He is still a good weight although he could be fatter but it is nothing I am going to worry about for at least a week. What really worries me is the twitching. Has anyone ever seen this in a tegu before? The more info I can get on his twitch the more likely I can convince my parents that he needs to see a vet. If anyone know of away I can get food/calcium into him I’m all ears. He has only been like this for 2-3days so I am hopping he just snaps out of it.
Thanks for all your help
Peter
Just something to add to it, my red tegu had a really runny nose when i took him out to see if he would eat (a few hours ago) it seemed as if he had a cold because as he breathed bubbles of snot came out of his nose and right after that he rush up my arm/leg......I have never seen him move that fast. After that he just chilled on my leg as if he was basking
Joined: Mar 25, 2005 Posts: 1354 Location: Denver, CO
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:52 pm Post subject:
Calcium problem, lighting problem, are Some possibilities - On top of the twitching however, sounds as your Tegu is having respiratory problems as well - So with 2 ailments going on along with not eating, your Tegu is most likely stressed and weakened - Try some supplemented scrambled eggs to see if he eats, however it would be best to take him to a vet ASAP... _________________ 1.0.0 Ball Python "Albino"
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Muscle tremors are typically caused by improper calcium balance in the muscles. It could be hypercalcemia or hypocalcemia, the most common experience is low. However, they can also be the result of glucose, biotin, and/or thiamin deficiencies, sepsis, central neurologic disease, and certain toxicities. The nasal discharge sounds like your tegu has an upper respiratory tract infection. Usually, these two symptoms are unrelated, except in the fact that they typically stem from poor husbandry. Without a doubt, your animal is sick and needs to see a vet. Pronto. While the muscle tremors are not typically an immediate concern, most reptiles will not endure respiratory infections for long.
As far as trying to figure out what you yourself can do, that is rather impossible without actually knowing what is the root of the problem. The basic things you should do is increase the animal's temperature, give it exposure to UV, and possibly hydrate it with some pedialyte or dilute gatorade, but these will not cure what is ailing the tegu. Without a doubt it needs to see a vet.
He was without a uva/uvb light for two weeks could that have caused it??? I have a younger B&W tegu in a similar set up eating basically the same diet so I have no idea why one is sick and one is fine. They were kept together for a month or so but i had to separated that because the B&W tegu was to stressed since the red was 2 times her size. Since she is smaller i gave her the uv bulb and he was left with just a heat bulb. Could this have any thing to do with his current situation?
Joined: Mar 25, 2005 Posts: 1354 Location: Denver, CO
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:42 pm Post subject:
They both need proper lighting/heating daily - Your husbandry is most likely playing a role in this as well - I would suggest getting your proper heating/lighting requirements "For both Tegu's and enclosures" up to where they need to be, before the situation becomes worse - I would still say, take him to the vet as well... _________________ 1.0.0 Ball Python "Albino"
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The most definitive answer I can give is maybe. As I showed above, there can be many reasons why you are seeing muscle tremors, hypocalcemia is just one. There could be an even greater underlying reason (such as kindney disfunction) that is causing the symptoms that you cannot determine without medical testing. The fact that you say it has stopped eating would give some credence to it being hypocalcemia/hypothiamin/hypobiotin/hypoglycemia or any combination thereof. Stress is also another instigator. Diet may be another - you claim your other tegu has the UV, so maybe it is receiving slightly sufficient nutrients and being supported by UV whereas the same diet without UV is not sufficient for the ill tegu. The fact of the matter, however, is with both tremors and respiratory problems (often a symptom of improper diet), there is likely nothing you can do yourself (unless you have amazing access to certain compounds) to alleviate the situation.
Some people claim they can keep their tegus without UV, and I'm not about to deny it. However, I have noticed that tegus are certainly much healthier and have stronger bones with it.
I don't think their diet is an issues but it might be I am no expert. Below is the mixture of foods i feed them. I also give them chicken organs along with mice and tuna. From what i have read both of their enclosures are good when it comes to heating when i separated them I had an extra heat bulb so they both had heat. since i got the red a uv bulb, they now both have proper heating and lighting.
Ingredients
-1 1/2 of ripe cantaloupe or honeydew melon finely chopped
-1 cup mashed ripe fruit/berries (see list below)
-1 can low cal dog food or 1-2 lbs cooked ground turkey
-2 cans of snails thoroughly rinsed with water
-1 1/2 cups chopped leafy greens (see list below)
-2 tsp RepCal Calcium with vitamin D3
-2 tsp RepCal Herptivite multivitamin
Fruits/berries - banana, pear, apple, strawberries, blue berries, raspberries, mango, and kiwi.
Greens - Dandelion greens, endive, escarole, collared greens, Swiss chard, bok choy, and romaine lettuce.
I don't know how many times I have to say this, but here it goes again - MICE ARE NOT NATURAL FOOD FOR TEGUS!!!!! In fact, there is growing evidence that in TEGUS SPECIFICALLY, that if they are fed high quantities of rodents without other balanced dietary items, under less than ideal husbandry practices, this can lead to the hair/fur of the rodents developing into intestinal blockage of the tegu.
On to other problems in your dietary plan there:
Lettuce: Put some tomatoes, radishes and salad dressing on it and eat it yourself. Most lettuces are little more than water, it hardly even constitutes as filler.
Dog food: Lip'n'assholes, beaks'n'claws, whatever else the manufacturer has on hand at the moment - does this sound balanced? They don't recommend feeding cat food to dogs, or dog foods to cats, why does it seem reasonable that these foods would seem balanced for reptiles?
Swiss chard: Although this vegetable has somewhat decent calcium content, it happens to be one of the vegetables with the highest oxalic acid contents which (drum roll please) INHIBITS CALCIUM ABSORPTION. Bottom line, don't use it. Period.
Collard greens and bok choy: These belong in the cabbage family, all of which contain significantly high levels of goitrogens. So, unless you are supplying sufficient levels of iodine in your tegus diet, guess what it can lead to?
Snails (and any other molluscs): These are natural parts of a lot of wild tegus diets and under normal circumstances I'd recommend them. However, particularly in the western world, these are usually highly contaminated with toxins picked up from the environment (they are frequently sampled by scientists to see how polluted an environment is) and also tend to be loaded with parasites. Unless you are CERTAIN of your source, you're playing Russian Roulette.
RepCal Calcium & Herptivite: Although these are good ideas, if not properly calculated with what you are giving them in the rest of the diet, can still lead to vitamin/mineral imbalances. Too much is just as bad as too little.
COOKED ground turkey: Ground turkey is fine, cooked is not. Cooking changes the proteins and other nutrients into forms that often the tegus cannot digest. Whens the last time you saw a wild animal BBQing its prey? Best to go with raw.
The rest of the diet sounds relatively fine, although I'd really look into the quantities a little closer to make sure you aren't imbalancing ratios. Fruits tend to be high in phosphorous and potassium, meats tend to low in both phosphorous and calcium, etc. etc. Variety is best for them, but if your variety is always high on the phosphorous side, low on the calcium, it can lead to problems.
tupiambis what do you feed to your tegus then. i am currently doing turkey mice chicks and some worms and grasshoppers. and i am going to be adding crawdads to the list. i also feed fruit. what do youthink i should be feeding my reds
When it comes to mice i only use them when i have nothing else i totally agree with you when it comes to that if i use mice at all i try to use pinkies and it has only happen 2-3 times the diet i use was referred to me by reptilia inc. www.reptilia.org I thought if anything the diet is better then most but i am no expert. dose any one have a list of foods and how i should prepare it that would be better for my tegus?
thanks
Peter
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's wrong to feed rodents to tegus. However, there is a caveat with that. Looking at wild tegu gut content analyses, we find that vertebrates (rodents, birds, frogs, lizards, and yes even other, younger tegus) make up around 5% or LESS of their diet. It's a far cry from 5% to being the dominant staple in the diet (in some cases the entire diet) that is often reported by tegu keepers. Let's inverse this and change the animal. How healthy would any of us be if we decided to have a diet where 90% of our diet was solely romain lettuce? Despite what a lot of vegans will tell you, I guarantee you that you'd quickly find yourself in the hospital. Taking an animal that isn't naturally a rodent specialist and forcing it to be one, no matter how much they seem to like them, can and often does lead to similar problems.
I'm not against feeding rodents to tegus. I do think they are nutritious. I do NOT think they should be the staple for many reasons. As I've already indicated, there's growing evidence that lots of rodents and subpar husbandry can lead to intestinal occlusion as the tegu has problems motilizing the hair. Secondly, most domesticated rodents are more junk food than nutritious. I have dissected hundreds upon thousands of the wee little guys, and 9 out of 10 of them are so laden in fat it is disturbing. Third, again as I've pointed out, they do not make up a significant portion of the diet of wild tegus. Fourth, when rodents make up a majority of the diet, there seems to be a growing trend wherein the tegus become selective and start consuming only the rodents. Best not to start that habit in the first place. And lastly, they fall into the realm of lazy husbandry. It is sooooo easy to just take a rat or mouse, toss it in, and think everythings fine. This then promotes similar attitudes in other aspects of the animal's husbandry, and before long you wind up with a poorly cared for pet.
As for what I feed my animals, that's not going to help you that much. Not trying to deflect your answer, but it comes down to the simple fact that I have access to foods your average keeper doesn't. Working at a university, and particularly in a comparative physiology lab that produces all kinds of "by-product", I utilize rats, mice, squirrels, sparrows, chicks, hamsters, gerbils, frogs, lizards, etc. for the animal component of the diet, as well as ground meats (turkey or beef). Last week, some of my animals got the treat of a bald eagle, I've even had the opportunity to offer other specialties as aardvark or kangaroo. In invertebrates they get crickets, locusts, beetles, cockroaches, millipedes, giant earthworms, and cicada. For fruits and veggies I use dandelion, arugula, escarole, water cress, palm fruit, acerola, pitanga, apples, pears, pommegranites, papaya, pineapple, kale, collard greens, mustard greens, broccoli, pea shoots, alfalfa (not the sprouts), mango, squash, pumpkin, zuchini, breadfruit, prickly pear, kiwanis, cherimoya, guava, banana, mangosteen, tamarillo, and several others I don't know the name of. Except when I'm offering live or whole prey items, I make a coarse mash of the mix, usually in a 50/50 animal/plant ratio.
Oh, I also forgot to add before that organ meats are generally a no-no. You can offer them occassionally as treats, but any more often than about once every two weeks or so and you could find yourself having nutrient imbalances.
so do you agree with my impending use of crawdads(crayfish) as a food source. no hair and from what i have found they do consume crustacians in the wild. this wont be a staple though but it will be frequent
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