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Frank Retes is the guy I always quote about not using UV as he has never seen a need for it. Read his posts and look at his pictures! I know of, as well as several others on the thread that no of others who keep and breed tegus and don't provide UV. I just don't see a need for it. I have never once ran into a problem. Infact I'm not even supplementing my tegus with anything as they are eatting mice. If I happen to run into any problems I'll let you know, for now these are my views. _________________ John Light
http://www.jlexotics.com/
Thats good for you, but I will continue to use them until further proof has been given. The fact of the matter is, we wont know the outcome of this lack of UV until several years time; will animals without UV live out the same life expectancy as those that do have it? Im am still sceptical about this method, as you hear so few success stories. As a matter of fact, this is just about the only one that is minus UV and supplementation and has had a good outcome.
To be honest, I believe that the average herp keeper doesnt have the knowledge and expertise to maintain a diet that incorporates all the herp needs to stay healthy without extra supplementation, and while theres still doubt I will stick with a UV source. I know that my tegu was around a year old when I got him measuring around 24" - now he is over a foot longer, having been provided with a variety of foods, supplementation and UV. Would he have got this big in such a short space of time so late on in his life without supplementation and UV? Who knows. But thats what Ricks growth chart is for
Joined: Dec 08, 2004 Posts: 998 Location: South Florida
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:39 am Post subject:
Not everyone posts their findings. Frank has more monitors then one could ever dream about. I believe he's the biggest monitor breeder out there. If you read his post he's got animals from all over the world! I have never used UV therefor that's another success story. I'm 90% positive Bennett doesn't have UV in his enclosures (for the blues which are in a 3ft vision) and his male is 32 or some odd inches long! He's only 6 months old and I know ASF didn't have UV on them! So I don't think growth would come into play. My male is still real small and my female is only about 22 inches long. Then again I have them in a much larger enclosure and they are burmating while Bennetts are out and about. Frank has been breeding/raising monitors for years without any problems....how long must you wait to find out that info? Frank also has some very old animals. Average herp keeper? All one needs to do is feed mice, the bones are plenty of calcium. What other knowledge does one need? Thus is true, no harm in using it, but then again is it needed? This topic can go round and round.... _________________ John Light
http://www.jlexotics.com/
Not everyone posts their findings. Frank has more monitors then one could ever dream about. I believe he's the biggest monitor breeder out there. If you read his post he's got animals from all over the world! I have never used UV therefor that's another success story. I'm 90% positive Bennett doesn't have UV in his enclosures (for the blues which are in a 3ft vision) and his male is 32 or some odd inches long! He's only 6 months old and I know ASF didn't have UV on them! So I don't think growth would come into play. My male is still real small and my female is only about 22 inches long. Then again I have them in a much larger enclosure and they are burmating while Bennetts are out and about. Frank has been breeding/raising monitors for years without any problems....how long must you wait to find out that info? Frank also has some very old animals. Average herp keeper? All one needs to do is feed mice, the bones are plenty of calcium. What other knowledge does one need? Thus is true, no harm in using it, but then again is it needed? This topic can go round and round....
Ah, but you havent been keeping the tegus that long now Ill count it a success story in several years time if all is well then. I am impressed by his story, and I think that it is possible - but I dont think its necessarily advisable. By all means, experiement on your herps I just dont think advising people that they dont need a light that has been proven to be beneficial in the past is a good idea when information on it is so sparse.
Im sorry, but feeding a load of mice to give your tegu some calcium isnt the balanced diet it would get in the wild, whereby it would be eating numerous different foods to make up for the vitamins that it needs. Its not just D3 thats the issue here, which is why I think supplementation is a decent (and proven) replacement.
Yes it can go around and around, as theres no real evidence to say either way is there? You were the one that started it up again, you know - and you didnt expect a reply?
I dont know if Bennett uses it or not, so I suppose he will have to tell us.
Joined: Dec 08, 2004 Posts: 998 Location: South Florida
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:46 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Ah, but you havent been keeping the tegus that long now Ill count it a success story in several years time if all is well then. I am impressed by his story, and I think that it is possible - but I dont think its necessarily advisable. By all means, experiement on your herps I just dont think advising people that they dont need a light that has been proven to be beneficial in the past is a good idea when information on it is so sparse.
My success with monitors was what I was refering to. As stated I know plenty of people that don't use uv with their tegus which would also mean more success stories. I'm in no way experimenting. Please explain how it has proven to be beneficial? What was the control? Conditions and everything, as I HIGHLY doubt anyone has done such a study. I have not advised anyone to do anything. If someone asks me I'll tell them no it's not needed but it couldn't hurt. Again Plenty of people don't use any supplements and still have long living healthy animals. Right now all my tegus will eat is turkey and mice. I'm attempting to get them on roaches but so far it hasn't worked out. LOL How is it NOT a balanced diet? Break out the charts for this one and show me some evidence. If that's the case, we better start supplementing snakes and trying to get them to eat other things as well! I have no problems with replies....but please show me some kind of evidence. I've shown you someone with years of experience breeding monitors under these conditions and all you've given me is word of mouth which to me, means nothing. Support your facts! Oh and I won't be the last one to bring this up....so get used to it appearing. You will see my replies, as well as plenty of others. Do what you will with your animals, no where have I started I'm trying to persuade anyone. _________________ John Light
http://www.jlexotics.com/
Joined: Dec 08, 2004 Posts: 998 Location: South Florida
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:25 pm Post subject:
This one is quoted from franks post. Follow my url to see it aswell as a few pics:
Posted by: FR at Wed Jan 26 10:28:03 2005 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]
Please understand I am not making fun of you, even thought it comes out that way. But to test UV, by using a UV meter is very silly.
You test it, by the effects on the subject, and in this case the subject is the monitors. You can test all sorts of bulbs with the monitors, and that we have done. The real funny part is, in order to test it, you must first know how to keep monitors healthy in the first place, or the test is fairly ineffective.
What we have found is simple, once you know how to keep monitors, then UV lites are of no positive effect. That is, A regular bulb is just as good. And yes sir, I have tons and tons of proof.
It boils down to this, you can take the difference in costs of bulbs, which is lots and feed your monitors better, build better cages, keep more monitor(us sickos), take your mates to the pub, buy your spouse a gift for their understanding, go get drunk or stay drunk longer, save it up and actually go see monitors. Throw it away, spend it on the lottery, donate to a good cause, etc. Now whos the huckleberry(fool)? We should spend five to ten times what is actually needed because the label says so? I say good for you, but I am no huckleberry. I will spend the difference on one of the above. _________________ John Light
http://www.jlexotics.com/
My success with monitors was what I was refering to. As stated I know plenty of people that don't use uv with their tegus which would also mean more success stories. I'm in no way experimenting. Please explain how it has proven to be beneficial? What was the control? Conditions and everything, as I HIGHLY doubt anyone has done such a study. I have not advised anyone to do anything. If someone asks me I'll tell them no it's not needed but it couldn't hurt. Again Plenty of people don't use any supplements and still have long living healthy animals. Right now all my tegus will eat is turkey and mice. I'm attempting to get them on roaches but so far it hasn't worked out. LOL How is it NOT a balanced diet? Break out the charts for this one and show me some evidence. If that's the case, we better start supplementing snakes and trying to get them to eat other things as well! I have no problems with replies....but please show me some kind of evidence. I've shown you someone with years of experience breeding monitors under these conditions and all you've given me is word of mouth which to me, means nothing. Support your facts! Oh and I won't be the last one to bring this up....so get used to it appearing. You will see my replies, as well as plenty of others. Do what you will with your animals, no where have I started I'm trying to persuade anyone.
We can look at all of the cases of MBD that have arisen in smaller herps, bearded dragons being the ones that I read the most cases about - the vast percantage of which were rectified using a UVB source. Read any book concerning their upkeep and you will see it there - a tried and tested method that has worked for many years. What more evidence is needed as to the benefits of UVB? This is the reason that many people see fit to keep a UV source in their herps cage, and I agree with them. And youre right, no study has been done - so who's right?
If you will re-read your last post, and I quote - "Average herp keeper? All one needs to do is feed mice, the bones are plenty of calcium. What other knowledge does one need? " Is that really all one needs to know? You seem to be changing the story now, with talk of cockroaches and turkey A snake is not a tegu - its dietry requirements are not the same. The biggest concern here for me is that someone will either misinterpret the information or misuse it, hence the need for giving both sides of the story. Anything thats posted as fact on a site becomes potential advice. I havent said youre wrong, so theres no need to get defensive; I disagree with you based on the information I have gathered from numerous sources, and thats the bottom line.
I dont mind it being brought up at all - actually, I find it interesting. Its the kind of arrogance that seems to set these people apart that bothers me; if you dont want to use it then thats up to you, and certainly its of no consequence to me. Again - and I reiterate - while theres a chance that it will be beneficial I will use it.
Second post - again, Im sure that his results are quite in support of your post. Having said that, there are a number of keepers that keep their animals under a UVB source, and have done for many years. How would their animals have thrived without? Equally as well? Less well? I dont know. But again, theres the other line of thought.
Last edited by Johelian on Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total
Joined: Jan 14, 2005 Posts: 80 Location: Amsterdam .NL
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:30 pm Post subject:
Quote:
We should spend five to ten times what is actually needed because the label says so?
I am very tempted to go with this, but on the other hand, why not use it if it won't hurt them? .. OK those bulbs are ridiculous priced..
we payed € 74.50 for a T-Rex 160 watts..
Now we are new to tegu's and the dude told us that if we didn't the animal would get bone disfunctions and disfigurations..
so we thought, wtf if it ain't hurting him just our wallet.. lets get one...But after reading John's 'source of quotes' i kinda feel like i bought a 82 malibu for $18.000
(btw.. I never used UV with my snakes over the years)
Rams hopes someone will finaly clear this up _________________
0.0.1 Tupinambis merianae (Argentine B/W Tegu)
1.0.0 Tupinambis rufescens (Argentine Red Tegu)
Joined: Dec 08, 2004 Posts: 998 Location: South Florida
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:43 pm Post subject:
Rams or anyone else that would like to cut in, please post on the kingsnake forum. Frank would be more then happy to answer your questions. UV supposedly aids in the whole calcium production. When you are feeding Whole prey items (i.e. mice, rats...) the bones are plenty of calcium. It's not like your feeding just crickets. I have never used UV on anything I've ever kept (the chameleons I kept outside while I had them and never had a problem). As Frank states it's more about your husbandry and their diet. If anything using UV IS experimenting on your animals! It is not a Natural Source! If you check out the pictures, I don't see his animals having any problems. BTW he just posted something in another thread, one of his flavi crosses is about to have it's 52nd clutch! I'd like to know how an unhealthy animal kept inside with NO UV would be able to go through the kind of stress breeding causes and produce that many times?! Wouldn't you think the animal would be dead by now? Just some more valid points. BTW philips makes zoomed (Bennett told me this) and I'm using philips 75W spot lights for the basking spots. I'm sure you could go to a homedepot or alike and get "growing bulbs" for MUCH less then the reptile ones, that is if infact you feel the need to use them. I'm trying to gather as much info on possible on so many subjects. Basicly all points are valid, nothing is set in stone and NO studies have taken place (to my knowledge). _________________ John Light
http://www.jlexotics.com/
Joined: Jan 06, 2005 Posts: 300 Location: Portsmouth N.H.
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:46 pm Post subject: uv- supplements
I do think uvb is benifical to youngsters, being kept inside, without natural light. I do believe uvb is directly related to increase in growth rates with youngsters to young adults. UVB does increase appetite and activity. This is my own experience. I've always been a advacate of using supplements with youngsters. But I've never fed rodents either. I'd say supplements are not as nessacery with adults, but couldn't hurt a couple times a week. I've never seen a adult with MBD.
Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 972270 Location: Central Maine
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:16 pm Post subject:
The FACT is that I have seen Bearded Dragons and Iguanas who have had MBD even though the Bearded Dragons were fed mice and dusted crickets. When exposed to a UVB source it DID slowly start repairing the damage of those who were not to far gone.
Can Tegus get MBD? I do not know. I have not seen or heard of someone having a tegu with MBD, but a UVB light cost me $40 for a 10.0 bulb. To me it was a great precaution since 'MY' tegus are not exposed to natural sunlight and 'MY' tegus are worth the extra $40 every 6 months.
And since when did a Tegu become a Monitor? Or even related to a monitor lizard? That's like comparing Hamsters to Squirrels so even if Frank is an expert with Monitors, he is not a Tegu expert.
Did anyone contact Bert or Ron for their opinions about exposing captive bred Tegus to UVB?
My "opinion" is that if supplying my tegu a $40 bulb every month MAY help keep it healthy and save me huge vet bills, what to hell.. right?
Until someone makes be believe that a Tegu, positively and without a doubt, can not have MBD.. I will use UVB.
Isn't it in the best interest of the Tegu to err on the side of safety?
To those who use UVB and have no signs of MBD: Bravo, better safe then sorry. Right?
To those who don't use UVB and have no signs of MBD: You saved $40 every six months, don't spend it all in one place. K.
Joined: Dec 08, 2004 Posts: 998 Location: South Florida
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:01 pm Post subject:
I see where this is going, I didn't mean for it to get off course. Iguanas and beardied dragons don't compare as they don't eat whole mice/rats as I stated. Lets bring this convo back to monitors and tegus. _________________ John Light
http://www.jlexotics.com/
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:05 pm Post subject: Experience tells me that hatchling and young Tegus need some
UVB, even if eating a good, supplemented diet. I've seen with my own eyes the early warning signs of MBD in young Tegus...the inactivity, toe and limb tremors, loss of appetite. For some reason they just don't seem to synthesize enough vitamin D3 from their diet to keep up with the calcium needs of their quickly growing bodies. I've also seen this condition completely reverse itself when the afflicted animal is exposed to UVB light with no changes in the diet or supplementation. Older and adult lizards seem to do fine without added UVB, at least in my experience.
Frank Retes is a very successful monitor breeder. Over and over again I've heard him talk about how nothing compares to dirt substrate and how a rodent only diet is sufficient for monitors. He says don't feed dog food or meat products. Yet, when I met him in Daytona his monitors were on aquarium gravel for substrate and when asked about how he feeds his rodents, he claims they eat dog food! Well, your rodents are only as nutritious as what you are feeding them. I admire Frank for his success but I think it's a shame that he can't be forthright and helpful to people that could benefit from his knowledge. What is he afraid of? I also can't agree with his evaluation of UVB bulbs on the market today. He claims that testing with a meter is useless. Personally I'd rather have my lizards that require UVB under a lamp that is providing 400m/u of UVB than one that is providing 50 m/u or less.
In doing rescue I've seen some miraculous results when an animal suffering from MBD is exposed to adequate UVB light. No one will be able to convince me that it's not a necessary part of good husbandry for a wide range of species. _________________ Mid Michigan Reptile Rescue and Rehabilitation
www.michiganreptilerescue.org
Joined: Dec 08, 2004 Posts: 998 Location: South Florida
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:46 pm Post subject:
Not trying to say it's not....Basicly what I'm doing here is bringing new info to light. I personally am not keeping them under UV. UV happens to be a great herp arguement so I thought I'd get it going again. It's cold outside right now but when it warms up I do plan on taking a large tub outside (While I'm washing my car or something) and let them sun. They eat like NO tomorrow! I was supprized, today I made a grilled cheese with eggs. I took a small amount of eggs and placed it with them and they quickly went to work! I was like What?! Hopefully the roaches will work this time but we'll see. I'm out of mice so I thawed out a small-medium rat. I cut off all the arms/legs and the tegus ate them (now that's good calcium). The female ate the head and the male ate a nice big chunk of the mid section. Anything left over went to the big girl (the parts were again chopped into smaller pieces). I'm really happy with their progress!!! I may give in and install a UV mount...then again I'm going to wait and see how this goes. For now they are thriving and doing great! LOL....that rat REALLY SMELLS! I know monitors don't need it (most of the people I know DON'T use UV), tegus is what gets me. Anyways time will tell! _________________ John Light
http://www.jlexotics.com/
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I just dont think advising people that they dont need a light that has been proven to be beneficial in the past is a good idea when information on it is so sparse.
What more evidence is needed as to the benefits of UVB? This is the reason that many people see fit to keep a UV source in their herps cage, and I agree with them. And youre right, no study has been done - so who's right?
