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Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:58 am Post subject: Not eating..
Hi, I just received a little argentine b&w tegu. She seems really healthy so far. Isn't afraid of people, walks around her tank, seems pretty curious. I just can't get her to eat. She didn't want pinkies, no dog food, no veggies. She's about a year old ( just came out of hibernation as I understand it ). Anythink you guys would recommend that might stimulate her appetite?
Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 972269 Location: Central Maine
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Not eating..
Freux wrote:
Hi, I just received a little argentine b&w tegu. She seems really healthy so far. Isn't afraid of people, walks around her tank, seems pretty curious. I just can't get her to eat. She didn't want pinkies, no dog food, no veggies. She's about a year old ( just came out of hibernation as I understand it ). Anythink you guys would recommend that might stimulate her appetite?
If she is just coming out of hibernation I would give her a few days and try a half dozen crickets. If she doesn't eat, wait a few more days and try again. It's normal for her not to be eating yet.
Make sure all of your temperatures are correct (see the "Helpful Info" link on the top left, and the "Argentine B/W Caresheet" in there)
Thanks a lot, guys. I was really worried for a bit. She refused her food for the rest of the day, then buried herself in her substrate and hasn't come out. I'm thinking she wants to finish hibernating? Should I just leave her be?
Joined: Sep 13, 2006 Posts: 478 Location: harlem, ny
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:32 am Post subject:
Something live & moving like crickets like Rick said or mealworms might catch her attention. Ditch the dog food though. _________________ 0.1.0 arg b&w tegu-chubbs
1.0.0 ball python-debo
0.1.0 colombian red tail boa-sheba
0.1.0 blood python-phatty red
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 1164 Location: panamacity florida
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:32 am Post subject:
Striggs is right, dog food is not good for tegus. Most dog food have red dyes # 5 and # 40, these have been found to be toxic to reptiles. Also the fillers used in dog food, like ash and news paper are very hard for reptiles to pass. These can build up in the system and cause a impaction later down the road.
As for her still trying to hibernate, I would let her alone, she will come out when she is ready. _________________ www.tegu.com and www.Varnyard-herps-inc.com
While dogfood is completely inappropriate as the majority of the diet of reptiles due to protein, vitamin and mineral levels in excess of what a reptile usually needs, a few things:
I have never ever found a reference to F&C Red 4 or 40 toxicity in a reptile in any sort of peer reviewed verterinary, toxicopathology or biochemical journal. If any one knows where it is, let me know for professional development. I've actually found a few sources citing their apparent inertness in the body, unlike F&C 2 or 3.
Otherwise, I've only ever seen it cited on the internet without backup. However, feeding rodents a diet of largely dog food and then feeding them to reptiles is basically feeding unhealthy prey to a predator, which can cause long term predator health effects (as well as noticeably shortening the lifespan of the rodent).
I dunno what kind of dog food you're feeding, but I've never seen one that has newspaper in it. Admittedly, I've never bought petfood in the US. Ash is usually cited as the dry matter left after determination of water content, fat content and such via a variety of methods - basically, it's the mineral content of food. Quantity of ash is important to know in certain disease states, but it is not identical to wood ashes being put in dog food and a food that cites ash content is not saying there's ashes in the food. If you find a dog food that has newspaper in it as filler, splash out a few bucks more for a higher quality of food and check the ingredient list carefully. Usually fillers in dog/cat food are plant based such as beet pulp, corn meal, etc. If you want to avoid fillers, feed a high quality ferret or diabetic cat diet.
Impactions tend to be caused in several ways: physical obstruction (i.e. you eat a rock, you have a tumour into the intestine, a portion of gut twists), stasis (severe dehydration, pain, neurological disease - food simply can't move along), or gradual accumulation over time - such as urates with chronic dehydration or sand in caecums (quite classic in larger animals). Ash, as in wood ash, is unlikely to cause this problem. You'd probably see toxicity first due to its high alkalinity. Otherwise, it's too fine to cause an impaction UNLESS the animal was severely dehydrated and ate a quantity for some reason and made a nice little mineral conglomeration somewhere. Newspaper might be a problem if the animal ate enough newspaper, but in the quantity of filler in pet food (and by that I mean all filler, as I've never seen newspaper) and the fineness of the wood fibres, it'd probably be passed ok if newspaper was actually used as a filler. Honestly, I've seen dogs pass whole sticks they've eaten.
Vorhees CV, Butcher RE, Brunner RL, Wootten V, Sobotka TJ.
Adult Sprague-Dawley rats were fed diets containing FD and C red dye No. 40 for 2 weeks and were then bred. The diets were continued for the females throughout gestation and lactation and were provided continuously to their offspring thereafter. The treatment groups were: FD and C red dye No. 40 as 0.0, 2.5, 5.0 or 10.0% of the diet, and a positive control group treated with the toxin hydroxyurea on days 2-10 of life with 50 mg/kg/day given s.c. as a positive control group. Parental animals were evaluated for weight and food consumption, and females for reproductive success. The offspring were assessed on a series of tests using the Cincinnati Psychoteratogenicity Screening Test Battery. Additional measures were weight, food consumption, physical landmarks of development, and brain weight. Red-40 significantly reduced reproductive success, parental and offspring weight, brain weight, survival, and female vaginal patency development. Behaviorally, R40 produced substantially decreased running wheel activity, and slightly increased postweaning open-field rearing activity. Overall, R40 produced evidence of both physical and behavioral toxicity in developing rats at doses of up to 10% of the diet.
Now you can feed this crap to your tegus, but I will not..
There is enough proof in the links above to prove my comment. Alex, next time do the home work.
Now for ash and newspaper, both of these are used a fillers in dog/cat foods. You really think a reptile can digest this stuff? Maybe so, maybe not, but it is not worth taking the chance!!! JMHO. _________________ www.tegu.com and www.Varnyard-herps-inc.com
the dogfood i gave her is a premium food. no fillers or by-products or anything like that. mostly just meat and veggies. top-dollar stuff! .. i work at a pet store, so i get a discount. HA! i would never try to feed her anything cheap and full of dyes and such. i pay careful attention to the labels.
thanks for the advice. it was just so strange for her to be up and walking around, then bury up for days. maybe i'm just being overly fearful.
Varnyard, do you actually read anything coherently before you start attacking anyone who contradicts you?
You state:
Quote:
Now you can feed this crap to your tegus, but I will not..
and yet she stated:
Quote:
dogfood is completely inappropriate as the majority of the diet of reptiles due to protein, vitamin and mineral levels in excess of what a reptile usually needs
You further go on with:
Quote:
There is enough proof in the links above to prove my comment.
But yet nothing you have pointed out actually disproves alex's point:
Quote:
I have never ever found a reference to F&C Red 4 or 40 toxicity in a reptile in any sort of peer reviewed verterinary, toxicopathology or biochemical journal.
She did specify reptiles.
And yet considering in other debates you disagree with studies done in endotherms being compared with ectotherms:
Quote:
Varnyard: Sure if you want to compare warm blooded mammals to cold blooded reptiles.
I guess it's fine for your argument to base data collected from other animals but it isn't fine for other people's points? Figures...
Whereas I agree that dog food shouldn't be used to feed tegus, I wonder where you got the leap from hummingbird feeder additives to other pet food? None of your links talk about those dyes in dog food at all. It probably is, but frankly, I wouldn't feed kibble dog foods to a dog anyhow (let alone a tegu). Forget the dyes, the so-called meat in that stuff is all the remnants (lungs, other organs, diseased carcasses, trampled meat that has fallen on the floor, etc.) that is unfit for human consumption, and considering what goes into hot dogs and other "meat products", that's quite disturbing.
Quote:
Now for ash and newspaper, both of these are used a fillers in dog/cat foods.
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 1164 Location: panamacity florida
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:49 am Post subject:
Go back and read my posts again, Alex is the one that said the ash was wood, not me. However, burned animal matter is not needed in a tegus diet. As for the dyes, if they are toxic to other animals and humans, what makes you think they fine for reptiles.
Alex said she has never seen where red dyes were toxic, in so doing once again called me a liar. I posted the proof needed, studies done by experts proving they are toxic.
Quote:
Alex: reference to F&C Red 4 or 40 toxicity in a reptile in any sort of peer reviewed verterinary, toxicopathology or biochemical journal.
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 1164 Location: panamacity florida
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:01 am Post subject:
She also said:
Quote:
Alex: dogfood is completely inappropriate as the majority of the diet of reptiles due to protein, vitamin and mineral levels in excess of what a reptile usually needs
What does that mean? It is ok to feed a little of it? No I read it right the first time. IMO, dog food does not need to be in the diet at all, it will do more harm then good.
So why did she feel the need to attack my post here?:
Quote:
Varnyard: Striggs is right, dog food is not good for tegus. Most dog food have red dyes # 5 and # 40, these have been found to be toxic to reptiles. Also the fillers used in dog food, like ash and news paper are very hard for reptiles to pass. These can build up in the system and cause a impaction later down the road.
What does that mean? It is ok to feed a little of it?
Oh come on, now. Let's be a little more intelligent than that, can't we? I guess you're claim is that even a little bit of dog food and the tegu is going to drop dead? We know that's not the case. I don't recommend feeding dog food at all either, but it's a better alternative than something like McDonald's.
Quote:
IMO, dog food does not need to be in the diet at all, it will do more harm then good.
I agree. But beings as you wish to attack over each and every little possible meaning, wherein did she claim it needed to be in the diet?
Quote:
So why did she feel the need to attack my post here?
What attack? She asked you for the references to back up your statements, which you failed to provide. Are you really that insecure?
Quote:
Most dog food have red dyes # 5 and # 40, these have been found to be toxic to reptiles.
Again, where are you getting this from? The sources you quote are lab rats.
Quote:
Also the fillers used in dog food, like ash and news paper are very hard for reptiles to pass.
Evidently you failed to read the links. Ash isn't a filler. It's the remnant left over when you burn up the food in a bomb calorimeter. It's comprised of inert minerals such as calcium, iron, etc (gosh, beings as it's called "ash", these minerals such as calcium must be bad). And nowhere have we seen any proof of your claim to it being full of newspaper either. But before you go off spouting more ridiculous nonsense, here's something for you think about. If you put a dead rodent in a bomb calorimeter and expend all it's calories, you are left with ash (all organic matter leaves ash to some extent). Are you claiming that someone stuffed the rodent full of ash? Of course not, it's just a remnant of the process. And beings that you insist you are correct, this means that this builds up in your tegus because you are feeding your tegus rodents, rodents contain ash and that will cause impaction down the road. So by your logic, we must not feed rodents to the tegus either. I guess then a modified SDZ diet...oh wait, that leaves ash too, so it too will cause impaction in tegus.....
The one thing I'll give you is feeding tegus newspaper is very likely to plug them up.
However, this is all going to be moot in your eyes because we dare to challenge your myths. LWV?
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 1164 Location: panamacity florida
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:03 pm Post subject:
Well I could ask you why is it that you cannot face the facts? Red dye # 40 is toxic and has more than proven this here. If you want to continue to claim what your girlfriend claims as facts, then you will be proving yourself to be 100% dead wrong as she has done.
These toxins are poisons, so that means a little is fine? I think not. The same could be said about any toxic substance, just a little won't hurt. No I choose to say there are much better foods for my tegus than things that have toxins in them.
As for the rats, they have always been used in labs as with this case. They do not use reptiles or humans, they use rats and mice. So please do not act so lost Colin.
As for the red dyes being in dog food and cat food, all one need do is read the label.
As for McDonalds, at least it is regulated by USDA, too bad pet foods are not.
So lets do be intelligent, It is bad as I have stated before. A little, a lot, I still will not feed this mess to my animals. I will also give advice not to feed it, regardless what you or Alex claim to know.
As for her claim to feed it, it is right here:
Quote:
Alex; dogfood is completely inappropriate as the majority of the diet
Inappropriate as the majority of the diet? Sounds like it can be fed, but not as the majority of the diet as she claimed. I say that is wrong, it does not need to be fed at all.
You also left off the part about the ones doing the test on the rats were more than qualified. They proved that Red dye # 40 is toxic and the FDA banned them for human use. Now that is the facts, you can own up to being wrong and admit it like a man, or you can run in circles like you are doing now. It is your choice..
. _________________ www.tegu.com and www.Varnyard-herps-inc.com
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 1164 Location: panamacity florida
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:29 pm Post subject:
This was written by Dr. Sanford Miller
Director of the Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition
United States Food & Drug Administration
In December 1984, Public Citizen Health Research Group petitioned FDA to ban the use of ten widely-used food, drug or cosmetic dyes. Avoid using any foods with artificial dyes ("artificial coloring," "U.S.Certified colors") such as the seven listed in Table 2: Red 3, Blue 1, Blue 2, Green 3, Yellow 5, Yellow 6 and Red 40.
Quote:
Dr. Sanford Miller
Director of the Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition
United States Food & Drug Administration
Internal Memo - 1984
RED 3 Candy, Desserts, Baked Goods 241,265 260,851 Thyroid tumors
Chromosomal damage FDA Recommended Ban
RED 40 Beverages, Candy, Desserts, Pet Food 2,630,578 6,541,368 Earlier lymphomas (lymph tumors) Banned in EEC (European Economic Community)
BLUE 1 Beverage, Candy, Baked Goods 260,417 1,802,634 Chromosomal Damage Banned in France, Finland
BLUE 2 Pet Foods, Candy, Beverages 101,223 642,246 Brain tumors Banned in Norway (pending FDA hearing)
GREEN 3 Beverages, Candy 3,597 13,747 Bladder tumors Banned in EEC
YELLOW 5 Pet Food, Beverages, Baked Goods 1,620,540 4,231,420 Allergies, thyroid tumors, lymphocytic lymphomas, chromosomal damage Banned in Norway
YELLOW 6 Beverages, Candy, Desserts, Sausage 1,530,050 4,156,408 Allergies, Kidney tumors, chromosomal damage Banned in Norway, Sweden
Also it is a fact that Red dye #40 is derived from coal tar or petrochemicals. Good stuff?
This one was put out by the Humane Society 2007. Dietary Information for Your Pet's Health.
Quote:
Facts about common additives in pet food:
Blue No. 2: Thought to increase sensitivity to viruses.
Red No. 2: banned by the FDA in the mid-70s.
Violet No. 1: banned by the FDA in the mid-70s.
Yellow No. 5: not yet fully tested.
BHA (Butylated hydroxyanisole)/ BHT (Butylated hydroxytoluene)
chemical antioxidant--gives food an endless shelf life
suspected carcinogen; 'questionable relationship to cancer'
associated with liver & kidney damage; fetal abnormalities and metabolic stress
known to affect both the central and automatic nervous systems
Ethoxyquin/Deccooquin
pesticide; 'hazard: toxic by ingestion'
alleged to cause liver, kidney, thyroid dysfunction & reproductive failure
affects allergic reactions, skin problems, major organ failure, behavior failure
does not need to be listed as an ingredient unless added by the pet food company, though it is often added at the rendering facility
Monosodium Glutamate
enhances flavor
may cause headaches, feverish flushes & rapid heartrates in humans
Propylene Glycol
can cause blood irregularities in cats
in the same chemical family as antifreeze, the most common household poison for pets
causes severe skin inflammation, hair loss and death in dogs
Sodium Metabisulfate
known to cause brain damage, weakness, and loss of consciousness in humans
Sodium Nitrate/Red Dye No. 40
preservative of color
linked to cancer and birth defects in laboratory animals
can produce nitrosamines--known carcinogens
ingestion by humans is fatal
Tocopherols (Vitamin C and Vitamin E)
naturally occurring compounds
prevent oxidation of fatty acids, vitamins and nutrients
shorter shelf life
And what does it say?:
Sodium Nitrate/Red Dye No. 40
preservative of color
linked to cancer and birth defects in laboratory animals
can produce nitrosamines--known carcinogens
ingestion by humans is fatal _________________ www.tegu.com and www.Varnyard-herps-inc.com
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