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Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject: Foot Tremors
My tegu's back feet and legs shake and twitch slightly, usually just while she basks or is sitting still.
I took a video of it but It doesn't show up very well on the camera, you can see her toes twitch a little but its actually happening to her whole foot and a little bit on her legs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9EYsSjCs_k
One thing I read said this could be a calcium deficiency issue.
I've had her (Argentine Black and White) for almost a month now.
Her diet consists of superworms, crickets, and ground turkey.
She has eaten a few pieces of cherries and grapes, but not on a regular basis.
I read that too much calcium can be just as bad as not enough. I've been dusting some of the superworms (probably about half a meal's worth) about twice a week with calcium and multivitamins.
Should I dust with vitamins and or calcium more often?
Has anyone heard of this before?
Joined: Oct 03, 2006 Posts: 561 Location: Central FL
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject:
Yes, I have heard of this and it is a sign of calcium insufficiency. While too much calcium can be bad over the long term, calcium insufficiency is much more common. If we take a look at some things, oversupplementation isn't a concern here.
In order for calcium to be utilized properly by the body, it needs to be in proper ratio with phosphorous and have a presence D3. Insects are higher in phosphorous and lower in calcium, throwing the ratio out of whack. Ground turkey doesn't offer much in the way of calcium as it has no bones. If you sprinkle the mealworms with a supplement, there are two factors to consider: 1) dust doesn't sit on mealworms well because they are slick and 2) if the calcium powder also contains phosphorous, then it's not helping the problem too much. If there is not an adequate UVB source that is unfiltered and placed an adequate distance from the lizard, then the Vit D is not produced to facilitate calcium metabolism.
OK, so what to do now? This can be reversed, but you have to be willing to put some time into this little guy. Most importantly, he needs some natural sunlight or a mercury vapor bulb to get the Vit D going. Even an hour a day around noon of natural sun would be so helpful. When he's not in the sun, he needs access to an UV bulb (long tube, not a coil) like a 8.0 or 10.0. Make sure that your supplement is a calcium powder that does not contain phosphorous and is separate from the other vitamins (Rep-Cal or Miner-All). Supplement twice a week and feed whole foods for a time (a few weeks). Whole foods are rodents (fuzzies & hoppers or bigger that have bone development), fish with bones (low sodium sardines/herring). When you feed ground turkey, feed it two or three times a week and use that for supplement days. Here's an example of something I would do: Mon,Wed,Fri: rodents; Tues,Sat: ground turkey and insects; Thurs: fish; Sun: beef liver.
It sounds like it is in the early stages and can be reversed with proper care. I have rehabbed little beardies with this problem, but not tegus. The only thing I have not tried in this post is the diet since beardies are a little different. But, it's what I would do if I had a tegu in my care with visible signs of calcium deficiency. With exposure to sunlight (so important!) and a good diet, you should see improvement very quickly. If you do not see any changes in two weeks or it gets worse, I would consult a vet for stronger calcium supplements. _________________ Laura R (FL)
0.1.0 Colombian Tegu
0.2.0 Argentine B&W Tegu
1.0.0 Red Tegu
1.0.0 Green Amevia (yet another teiid)
8 other lizards
1 little gator
13 snakes
4 frogs
some bugs
and a partridge in a pear tree
Joined: Oct 16, 2007 Posts: 2555 Location: San Antonio,TX
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:45 am Post subject:
Yes,this is a sign for not getting enough calcium.Here is a caresheet from Rick ( the breeder of some very tame Tegus and the admin from this forum ) so you know when to give your Tegu the calcium and vitamine powder.Also try to take her outside in the natural sun light for at least one hour.That will help allot.If it doesn't get better soon you might have to take her to the vet and get some liquid calcium and give it to her with a syringe.Please keep us updated on how she is doing.Thanks.
Thanks for the responses, I'm going to do everything I can to correct this.
It looks a little worse than it did yesterday. It looks like she is shaking a little more, and I can't tell if her body is shaking or its just her legs moving more.
I just took her outside for about an hour and I'm going to go back out in a little while. She is shedding right now and looked like she was really enjoying squirming through/under the rough grass.
This is the bulb that I have: http://www.reptileuv.com/megaray-sb-100-watt-self-ballasted-flood-uvb-lamp.php
Should I have a 10.0 strip bulb instead? This says it produces plenty of UVB
It says the Minimum distance is 12" and the max is 20"
I've got it about 15" from the basking rock, Should I move it closer?
Also there is a screen lid between the bulb and the tegu, Is it possible the screen is filtering out a lot of the UVB rays?
I have the lid off the cage most of the time that I am home, I know its not natural sunlight but she definitely gets more than an hour of this bulb with the screen off every day. But if the screen is a problem I can do something about it.
I use Rep-Cal Calcium. It says right on the label No Phosphorous, No Vitamin D3. Are you sure I shouldn't use it more than twice a week for now?
Ricks care sheet says to add Vitamin D3 occasionally.. I have Rep-Cal Multivitamins that doesn't say anything about D3.
Laura, should I be adding this Multivitamin to the ground turkey with the calcium? Or do I want just the calcium while she is rehabilitating?
I'm going to run out and get some frozen fuzzies right now, I've never fed her rodents. When I first got her my order of pinkies got canceled some how and I never got around to ordering more.
She is about 2 months old, she can probably fit fuzzies in her. They are better than pinkies right now because they have more bones correct?
Again thanks for your help, I will keep you posted.
Hello shlink..yup, a definite calcium deficiency without even watching your video, This I know ...The great news is, when they are young, they can shrug this off with some adjustments to their living conditions and make a full recovery.
If this is left untreated, you will begin to notice that your tegu will begin to lose strength in his back legs. He will not lift the back of his body up when he walks. Rather, he will just shuffle his back legs and drag his stomach on the ground. However, even if it gets to this point, which it shouldn't, it is still 100% recoverable. What happenes is that the tegus body is starting to take the calcium from the bones in his legs. If this continues, the more and more calcium the body pulls from the legs. The weaker the limbs become.
I would listen to the advice that was given earlier in this thread. Also, I wouldn't worry about too much calcium at this point. Maybe dust every other meal with pure calcium and every 3rd or 4th meal with vitamin D3.
Just make sure that his lighting contains UVB an that his basking area is hot enough.
Also, a tegu that eats a lot of rodents, will almost never get a calcium deficiency, providing they are also given a balanced diet. Start your tegu on some form of mice as soon as possible.
Joined: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 150 Location: Victoria, BC
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject:
Hello Shlink. It sounds very much like you need to correct an imbalanced calcium phosphorus ratio. I did a bit of research on the foods you regularly feed you tegu. I'll show you the calcium:phosphorus ratios:
The correct Ca:P ratio for most lizards is more like 1.5:1 or 2:1.
Your tegu is getting way more phosphorus than calcium in its diet, and this is one of the two major causes of MBD. The other cause, insufficient D3, I think can be dismissed because you are using a good quality UVB source (as long as your bulb isn't too old). MegaRay is one of the best and I would stick with that.
I think you should significantly raise the amount of calcium supplement you are using. Anytime you feed one of the above mentioned food items, supplement with Ca. This does not mean piling it on, which is also bad, but just adding a sprinkle to the food. Keep using the no phosphorus no D3 supplement. Give the multivitamin maybe twice a week - this is the one you need to be more careful of overdoing.
Good to see that you are getting some rodents. Definitely go with the fuzzies and not the pinkies. Pinkies have a Ca:P ratio of 0.9:1. Fuzzies should have a much nicer ratio, as well as more protein.
Another tip. Papaya (at least the smaller Hawaiian type) has a Ca:P ratio of almost 5:1, and if your tegu is anything like mine, it will quickly become one of his favorite foods.
The trick is to get a good feel for the Ca:P ratios of different foods so you know when to supplement Ca and how much. When you feed items with a higher ratio, supplement less, but for crickets worms, ground turkey, definitely supplement more, because there is a significant imbalance to overcome.
Awesome, today she isn't shaking at all, I'm not sure if the sun and mice could have helped that quickly but I'm not complaining.
I took her outside for some more basking today. She found a few more slugs and seems to love them.
Dpjm, thats very helpful thank you, I'll get a big list of Calcium to Phosphorous ratios going.
October, I'm glad to hear how treatable this is and that I'm not the first one to experience it.
Laurafl, thank you again for your original post, and TXRepGirl, thank you as well. I'm glad that my screen shouldn't be a problem.
Hello Shlink. I'm glad he is doing better......and yes, he can be doing better within 24-48 hours with the proper care adjustments.
I would also like to mention that seemingly, this is not uncommon at all. From what I have see and read. Tegus seem to be prone to calcium deficiencies (among other things) more than other reptiles.
I have read articles where people have spoken of situations where they take good care of their tegus and the animal may still go into a calcium deficiency.
What I did when mine started was ( through the recommendation of a reptile store owner who keeps large tegus) was to give him Liquid UVB otherwise known as solar drops. I would like to add that I ONLY used these to get my tegu back on his feet for maybe 2 weeks. I don't believe in regular use of these and they are, in my opnion, NOT a substitution for good lighting.
I do know that after about 24 hours of giving my tegu more calcium in combination with the solar drops, he was able to put pressure and lift himself up with his back legs again. It wasn't long after, that he made a %100 recovery.
In your case. It sounds like your tegu will be fine in a couple more days. I have no exact proof that it was the solar drops becasue I used more calcium etc....However, I know that he recovered very quickly when I used them.
Rob
I ended up going back to the reptile store and thanked the guy for recommending them. I told him how fast they worked and he said yup, in his experience, they work very well.
Joined: Oct 03, 2006 Posts: 561 Location: Central FL
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:38 pm Post subject:
I can only repeat what others have said. I don't think your screen is an issue with a Mercury Vapor bulb, especially since he gets exposure without any filter (screen). It sounds like an imbalanced diet. Mango is also a good fruit that provides calcium. I would limit grapes and strawberries at this time since they are high in oxalates (interferes with calcium absorption). As dpjm said, I would supplement anytime I used ground turkey by sprinkling a bit of calcium. I'm not a big fan of supplements and I do believe that you can overdo both calcium and mutivitamins over a long period of time. But as dpjm said, it's not the frequency so much as the amount...it just takes a little bit.
I'm glads your little tegu is doing better. They really can turn around rather quickly! _________________ Laura R (FL)
0.1.0 Colombian Tegu
0.2.0 Argentine B&W Tegu
1.0.0 Red Tegu
1.0.0 Green Amevia (yet another teiid)
8 other lizards
1 little gator
13 snakes
4 frogs
some bugs
and a partridge in a pear tree
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.Here is some info on the rodents that you might want to check out.Don't worry about the screen.
