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Joined: Feb 01, 2006 Posts: 403 Location: Missouri
Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:10 pm Post subject:
I would like to take the time to apologize to danceswithsavs. I understand that their family has great intentions with a positive change in behavior with these little baby savvys. I do think that it'll help danceswithsavs gain a lot of knowledge even if the project doesnt turn out the way it planned. I took this overboard and after talking to him on thetegu chat, he is really a great person. Take the time to get to know the guy (and his wife) before you make your decision on something silly. I hope for the best with this, good luck.
Joined: Nov 30, 2006 Posts: 342 Location: Southern California
Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:43 pm Post subject:
I guess i'll just take this moment to wrap up all I have to say. Danceswithsavs, I hope you don't hold a grudge against me, though I can see why you might. Honestly, if Buzzy and Lilly grow at a rate like that and are happy and healthy, there is probably nothing wrong with what you are doing. About the Youtube comments, from my experience, non-whole food is bad, and for a healthy sav you need correct temps. They also associate things with food, and bite. Hard. I just didn't think what you are doing was a good idea. Honestly though, if your monitors are happy and healthy, there is not much you could be doing wrong. There is no one way to take care of an animal. I would like to see how Buzzy and Lilly turn out...proof if your methods work. I'll be waiting for the vids. _________________ Animals: Too many.
Im a bit puzzled where the attitude that we all want "savage" larger lizards, and that this is proven by a reluctance to "train" them, is coming from. Savs are popular pet reptiles, and I believe many people have docile ones without resorting to unusual training methods..? Similarly, I know several people (including myself) that have tame adult tegus that certainly never try to bite or whip - and again, Im pretty sure they have never been "trained".
Im interested (but, I must admit, not swayed) by your video diaries; its just Im not convinced that training on this level is fundamental to having a tame larger lizard, and that seems to be the direction you're taking with this latest video and posts. _________________ www.freewebs.com/johelian www.freewebs.com/joslittleworld
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1.0.0 Argentine Tegu T.merianae
3.4.0 Monkey Tailed Skink C.zebrata
1.0.0 Crawl Cay Boa B.c.imperator
0.1.0 Royal Python P.regius
Johelian-
When i first started showing the vids, i thought there would be at least a few others interested in the idea of deliberately trying to see how intelligent and tractable a lizard can be. After all- they have brains, like any other vertebrate. I've seen wonderfully trained fish- so it seemed almost wasteful to not teach them things just because they are so smart.
They have a brain for more than decoration, but they don't have a natural savannah to roam around in and exercise that brain. They are captives living with people, so they really have no choice on the menu of what they are to learn (not that they ever did)- only i have the choice of how it is prepared for them to learn it.
Of course they learn all the time, whether the keeper is deliberate and thoughtful about it or whether it just happens in the course of the relationshiip. Similarly, a human child will learn without ever attending school. Brains learn. That's what they do and they chug away all day long doing that. I just make an effort to prepare a part of their experience so it's easy for them to 'get it' on some parts where human interaction is to their benefit or ours- like letting us know when they want their food or bath or petting. Things don't fall out of the sky randomly, for their lunch. They work for a living; just not in the fields of africa, but on the carpets of vancouver. They are confident because they know they can get anything they need reliably by their own efforts.
They do what they do and if we like it, we pay them. Once their income was sufficient to support them and their growing appetites, we refuse to pay for anything we don't like. So we are symbionts to that degree.
When i first posted the vids and training manual, i actually expected positive interest and encouragement. To my surprise, i was attacked for abusing animals by forcing them to be unnatural.
Urban legends have been deliberately spun up and embroidered to demonise me personally in order that the very topic be repressed. I'll have a word to say about crocdoc, who invented the 'drowning as a method of training' rumor and juliussqueezer who carried that on to 'i haven't seen is snuff video' depths of slimy slander. Also i have a word to say on the mob who shifts from one side to another like weeds in a breeze and who never think for themselves - you know- the ever ready rabble waiting to be roused.
Every forum has one or a few leaders who influence the beliefs of the rest. Some of them are respected on their merits. Some have achieved dominance by means of intimidation. The majority of posters are lazy folks who will accept an interpretetion from the guru before they can be bothered to google or read or find out something first-hand.
I've been banned or run off of 6 forums so far. The reason for it is that there are soi-disant experts who insist that monitors must be 'natural'.
They do this for a few different reasons:
http://cnc-g-spot.com/Training.a.Sav/Heresy1.html
Being as how the vids are hard to dispute and that my training manual is also informative and useful, there is little to attack with respect to the handling, procedure or results, so character assassination has been their resort. Crocdoc and his disciples have followed me from forum to forum- in some cases registering there for the sole purpose of slandering me in that forum to get me banned there too. I has never failed. I was banned from redtailboa forums yesterday when the goons arrived. There was not a single defender who withstood their onslaught. There was only one person who did not totally fall for it- but what can one person do when the forum mods are now leading the charge and inventing 'snuff videos' to tar me as an animal abuser. It's like yelling 'jew!' in a mosque.
So, Johelian, it is because i've been pursued by this mob of vicious characters that i have become combative and it is their agenda that training is evil that is the primary rationale for putting me through their wringer.
It appears that there are more reasonable people here- look how 2 people have already opened their minds to the evidence- (despite lots of peer pressure from many other forums where they have seen me trashed) and are willing to grant the possibility that there is a value in teaching a lizard! Furthermore, Rick and Bob have both refused to run with the mob. So i'm making the next post before the mob arrives here.
in the beginning....
i met some heavy skepticism.
Some of the leaders of the mob are, in order of shamefulness:
Crocdoc of captivebredreptile forum, peterparrot, a mod there, sam sweet- who really knows better than to say what he does. Juliussqueezer, admin of redtailboa, for his innovation of telling people i had a snuff film of drowning monitors and just felt all unconstrained:
"[10:27] <Julius> who's the old lady in the videos anyway? I'm guessing you aren't the one taking the risks anyway?...figure grandma won't live much longer anyway?"
hmm... it is nobody's business, but ima try one time telling a very personal story.
No Julius, in fact i do not expect my dear wife to live much longer.
When my wife had a heart attack and barely came through, thanks to a coronary stent and Plavix, an anti coagulant she must take daily, it was necessary for her to reduce her level of activity a bit. The downside of any anticoagulant drug is, of course, you bruise easily and if you get cut you bleed profusely.
What Cuppycake, my wife (yes, that's what i call her), has always done and been best at is being a Mom. She has raised three sons and one daughter of whom she is very proud.
Cuppycake wanted a pet, a living creature to care for and be a Mom for. I didn't particulary want hairy things around the house, and i'd had a bit of experience with savs and respected their intelligence and gentle temperament. She seemed agreeable to the idea, so i surprised her with a very young sav i bought from a shop for $140.00. He was most likely WC.
This little sav rarely showed any defensive behaviour like whipping or pancaking and hissing or that sort of thing, but he lacked what i remembered as natural inquisitiveness. He didn't eat a lot and didn't roam around much. He seemed just 'slow', is all i can describe it.
He had the same temps as Lilly and Buzzy did; same water dish for bath, same hidey box, same hotrock, same uvb light, same dishtowels for substrate.
We had him maybe two months and he didn't grow or do much or eat much.
One day we came home and found him floating upside down in the same bath he'd always had and got into and out of on his own.
It is devastating to have a pet die- you care for it even if it's not 'quite right'- maybe even more so. When one dies, it's something that marks you same as the loss of a loved one.
Seeing the tiny corpse floating upside down was horrible, and the first thing one does is a huge self examination for anything you might have done wrong or might not have done that was needed. Cuppycake felt terribly guilty, but i wasn't so ready to blame either one of us, to be frank. We don't really know why he died, we just assume he drowned because we found him in his bath. But the image of a tiny floating baby corpse remained strong.
The only thing that would really fill the void had to be another sav. Cuppycake loved Belly Dragon and nothing else could possibly make things better but to raise a little sav successfully. We have no petshops within 160 km so she called around for months, finally locating an adoption agency that did have one right then. She was very excited but she had to wait til his third fecal came back before she could go and get him. Unfortunately, a few days later, wildlife agents took him to go to the zoo, or some collection, i don't remember. So Cuppycake called all over but none were to be found.
A month or so later, she located another adoption agency that said come on down!
It was 200km or so distant & she hopped in the car and went to the agency.
When she got there, they had 2 juvies. One was very drab and one was pretty and contrasty. The drab one never got chosen to be looked at, but everybody wanted to look at the blond one with the nice spots.
He was fighty and bitey and they used a glove, gently, whenever they took him out.
They said the drab one was a prowler but the spotty one just liked to lay around.
Cuppycake was completely unable to choose and had to have both.
I then began the 'training logs', because i thought i might as well show the world what gentle and intelligent creatures these are. I love them, too.
Lilly was brilliant from the start. She blew me away! She still blows me away.
She learns things very fast and remembers things very well- but that's something i could write a small book on.
Buzzy had a fear of hands. It took him about a month to get to the same stage that Lilly achieved in her first hour! But gentle patience pays off. One could see his 'line of avoidance' where he would hesitate. The distance from my hand decreased in inches daily until he was climbing up just a bit to get to the hand. He was improving, but then, as i was settling the savs in their cage for the night, Buzzy flew into a really angry and sustained rage, in full scale FIGHT mode.
I didn't want to go to bed leaving him that way with Lilly in harm's way if he got nasty at her, so i made a smaller box and put him in the cage in that to isolate him. Lilly had the hidey box to herself, peacefully.
In the morning, Buzzy was raging in the box- hissing and hissing. I didn't want to leave him in the box and i felt that with all that adrenaline pumping, nobody to fight and no place to flee, it was a good idea to put him in the tub so he could work it off swimming if he wanted. He never had a problem with baths- contrary to legend, savs do like swimming and soaking. At least ours do. It is good exercise.
Because Buzzy was in a very angry mood, we did not want him to associate us with that mood even remotely, so we put towels over our heads so we could watch from behind the shower curtain as i let him out of the box into the water. That's the origin of the jest about being in burkha. We looked quite sinister.
He just floated and casually paddled for a bit. Usually he paddles like mad til i put my hand in for him to stablilise himself (at this time in the story). The water only was deep enough that he had no traction with his feet even though he can actually touch bottom.
After several minutes of diffident paddling, he turned his tail to one side, which tipped him slightly, and he compensated by pushing down on the bottom and flipped himself upside down. We didn't wait to see if he could turn himself over because for that instant, it came back to us with force, the image of Belly Dragon, floating dead in his bath.
In all seriousness, i don't think he would have let himself stay that way for more than a second, but Cuppycake jumped in without waiting to see.
Drowning was never an actual threat. Our worries, as expressed in the training log, were not about drowning but about his rage and if he would present a threat as he got bigger.
Whatever it was that that caused the violent fight response has never reappeared, apparently. I now think that it originated with some memory established before he came to us, but that's just my speculation.
Of course we were worried about if he'd hate us forever! Who wants an animal that can harm you that also actually wants to harm you?
Cuppycake doesn't grow skin as fast as she once did, and can't really risk handling an aggressive animal. We would have been terribly disappointed if Buzzy had to spend his life in an cage.
If you let a puppy run wild it will become a feral dog. If you train it, you get a friendly animal that everyone expects to be no problem, even though there are quite a lot of dog bite injuries. There was a famous face transplant, recently, that was brought about by a friendly pet dog, but people see that as an aberration because their expectations are set for that.
If you let a baby sav stay in a cage, feed it live food it must catch quickly and kill, or tease it with tongs- it should be no surprise if he learns from your teaching how to attach things. This is not what one wishes to teach to a pet. You can raise a dog to be vicious if you want; you can raise a save to be tame if you want.
If Buzzy was going to have periodic rages, we had to be very concerned. But as the training log says, he forgot all about it and he's never offered to fight over anything since. He puffs sometimes when Lilly climbs on him, but i think that's not really in the category of aggression. He needs that to communicate and it doesn't look harmful.
It was very shortly thereafter that Buzzy began to make faster progress. He's as good as Lilly is with safely distinguishing fingers from food and feeding from the hand. Nobody wets his pants over a dog taking a biscuit from his owner's fingers- but a dog has much bigger teeth than a sav. And a sav is much less complicated a creature. A sav is very much a creature of habit- we all are, in fact. A habit is very hard for a person to break even with intention. A sav can't come up with any kind of intention to break a habit- he IS his habits. All i do with the savs is get them comfortable and teach them some good habits for getting along with people. They are responding as you see in the vids.
Cuppycake loves her savs and she can freely handle them. Lilly is a petting addict and will pin my wife down for hours getting her petting. We don't ever want to refuse them when they demand attention. Pets are for giving them attention to, after all!
Meanwhile.....
If you check the youtube videos, mostly what you see is -=Predator vs Live Prey!=-. There are a lot of people who love to have a private basement gorefest. That's what it's all about for them, but the rationale they speak is:
'It's Their Natural Behaviour'
To get 'natural behaviour' i'd have to leave the savs in africa. These are no longer wild animals. They are captives who just need to learn how to work their will in their new environment to get along with people just fine.
But if i teach my savs to be friendly and have friendly savs- that, in effect, implies that someone who has an unfriendly one has been teaching it to be unfriendly, which is quite likely the truth.
There are quite a few experts on the topic of monitors. The majority of them have limited first hand knowledge and base their opinions on something they read. Often enough, they are content to base their conclusions on an interpretation of what they didn't even read.
Aside from the ringleaders who instigated the persecution, i'd like to offer wholehearted condemnation to each and every fool who mindlessly followed them- and a special token of disrespect to the few craven cowards, like louise, who knew better but couldn't bring themselves to speak up. F word for all you less than human acting persons.
Sleepy deserves recognition as the sole person from rtb who was not shoving me on the bus out of town.
And a couple people here who have shown what i formerly considered normal decency but must come to regard as unusual and heroic.
i am not gonna read this whole thread. i told dances withsavs that i loved what he was doing, i even posted it. i bought him gifts on RTB and gave him good rep power. then it came out about him putting that lizard in the water and then playing hero to save it. that changed my mind about him. i still wanted to see his videos and i was still hoping beyond hope that he could prove that reptiles had emotions. i told him in chat that i could no longer support him, the lizard in the water changed things. i had even posted in admins. forum that i thought he was being attacked, that was till i read the lizard in the water thing. _________________ "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened"-Anatole France
http://www.herpworld.com/
He has started the day with the same rage. Touching his 'jail box' elicited much hissing from within. We decided to put him in the bathtub with deep water in order to exhaust him and then be the 'heroes' that 'rescue' him.
We did this all while being very mindful to not show face, hands or let him smelll us. We did not sing or speak, either. Thugs in burka were we.
He didn't paddle actively- he was unusually calm in the water. Usually he paddles like mad till he can get a grip on something. We watched with one eye around the shower curtain, which was drawn.
After 5 minutes or so, he flipped on his back, head underwater, and remained still. This was a frightening image, as we had lost a monitor to drowning and found his corpse in the same pose. The wife immediately snatched him up He had not inhaled any water and seemed OK, but all fight was gone. He was doing a hard-core 'freeze'. Wife put him inside her bathrobe where it was warm, dark and smelled familiar.
okay i just found this and my opinion has changed totally. that almost made me cry. danceswithsavs, i thought you were all about love and caring for these lizards? this makes me cringe. i was hoping someone finally was gonna prove that reptiles have some form of affection. i would rather never have any proof then see them tortured.
Joined: Feb 01, 2006 Posts: 403 Location: Missouri
Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:00 am Post subject:
louise wrote:
okay i just found this and my opinion has changed totally. that almost made me cry. danceswithsavs, i thought you were all about love and caring for these lizards? this makes me cringe. i was hoping someone finally was gonna prove that reptiles have some form of affection. i would rather never have any proof then see them tortured.
I just dont see how you can let this friend of yours get banned. I'm sure you have a little say in what goes on. I try to stand up for the guy and my reputation points gets dropped to 0. Shows how much I feel for rtb.net
rehab, you of all people should know i would turn on my own mother if i thought she was abusing a reptile. but i didn't turn on danceswithsavs. i was upset about him saying he wanted to play hero and save the lizard cause it thought it was drowning, it did not mean i hated danceswithsavs. i still plan on watching his videos and hoping he can prove something. but i will never agree with the water thing. the part where he said he wanted to play hero and rescue it. but i still think he is on to something and that i do respect. _________________ "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened"-Anatole France
http://www.herpworld.com/
but if this turns into a juliussqueezer bashing, i will be gone. i think everyone on the net knows how i feel about brett. _________________ "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened"-Anatole France
http://www.herpworld.com/
[10:27] <Julius> who's the old lady in the videos anyway? I'm guessing you aren't the one taking the risks anyway?...figure grandma won't live much longer anyway?
isn't squeezer the one who started the rumour that i made a snuff film of drowning a monitor?
yes he is!
was that innocent or accidental?
no, it wasn't!
So what are you defending louise, 'Nastiness, right or wrong'?
This person is vicious, and i'd love for the world to know it.
And you have your own burden to bear for attaching yourself to such swine. Much as you say you love animals, you are happy to consort with human abusers. I'm not seeking to explain it- as an honorable person and a member of the human race i must oppose human evil and those who offer support to it.
If squeezer were honorable, he'd be apologising like mad, deleting a ton of posts he made, and swearing an eternal oath to mend his ways.
If you were an honorable woman, you would be defending what is right and not what is wrong and what harms people. Or perhaps it is that you only love animals? Well, squeezer is less than what you credit an animal- an animal has no power to choose stupidity; an animal has no power to rule a mob; an animal doesn't make up lies.
Brett is a disgrace to the human race and you don't show much promise, yourself.
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