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Joined: Feb 06, 2007 Posts: 16 Location: Yuba City, California
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:14 am Post subject:
Grimlock wrote:
Wow...Dances, I have noticed that when you respond to these accusations, you do nothing but turn it back around on the poster, and try to make them look bad. It is as if you are acknowledging that you did wrong, but saying "well you did it too!!" You are really not looking good, you need to explain how you managed to drown a monitor before, and why you came close to doing it again.
If you look back a couple of pages you will see the post she made about her monitor dying. It was never healthy, so in my opinion it shouldn't have had a water bowl in it's enclosure. When I have rescues I NEVER put a water bowl in, for this reason. If it isn't healthy it will need your help.
Thank you alex smith for reading what was written. You are the first who seems to have bothered to allow me to explain. The others are still running with a tale so spun that it doesn't resemble reality.
I shall now start a new thread and some experts will have something to say.
Joined: Feb 06, 2007 Posts: 16 Location: Yuba City, California
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject:
danceswithsavs wrote:
Thank you alex smith for reading what was written. You are the first who seems to have bothered to allow me to explain. The others are still running with a tale so spun that it doesn't resemble reality.
I shall now start a new thread and some experts will have something to say.
I did read all the way through, but still don't agree with some of the things you are doing...
I said that monitor shouldn't have had a water bowl if it was in poor condition, it should have been given baths regularly instead that were monitored by you to make sure nothing happened. That way you would know it is getting enough water and it is also safe from drowning. I still can't believe after that incident you went ahead and tried 'fake drowning' your monitor. That just makes no sense to me...
Joined: Feb 01, 2006 Posts: 403 Location: Missouri
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:43 pm Post subject:
danceswithsavs wrote:
Thank you alex smith for reading what was written. You are the first who seems to have bothered to allow me to explain. The others are still running with a tale so spun that it doesn't resemble reality.
I shall now start a new thread and some experts will have something to say.
in the beginning....
i met some heavy skepticism.
Some of the leaders of the mob are, in order of shamefulness:
Crocdoc …
danceswithsavs wrote:
…character assassination has been their resort.
… it is their agenda that training is evil that is the primary rationale for putting me through their wringer.
danceswithsavs wrote:
Every forum has one or a few leaders who influence the beliefs of the rest. Some of them are respected on their merits. Some have achieved dominance by means of intimidation.
danceswithsavs wrote:
Urban legends have been deliberately spun up and embroidered to demonise me personally in order that the very topic be repressed. I'll have a word to say about crocdoc, who invented the 'drowning as a method of training' rumor
danceswithsavs wrote:
Crocdoc and his disciples have followed me from forum to forum- in some cases registering there for the sole purpose of slandering me in that forum to get me banned there too.
So, here I find myself in the annoying position of having to register onto this forum for the sole purpose of defending my name. Danceswithsavs, I gather you were hoping I wouldn’t find out you were talking about me on this forum, since I am not a member? Sorry to disappoint.
Clearly you have this strange notion me as some vigilante, followed by a torch bearing posse, hunting you (the martyr - the only one that can see the true light) down.
Reality check: There is no mob - no followers, no leaders. All I’ve done is to point out to people the training manual link that you yourself posted in which you explain your drown/save method for ‘taming’ monitors. I haven’t invented any 'rumour', it’s right here in your ‘training manual’.
The people on these forums have their own eyes and brains, what happens after they read your work is their own choice. If they choose not to think highly of your techniques, blame your techniques, not me. Hasn’t it ever struck you as an odd coincidence that you’ve been banned from every forum you’ve tried this on? Does it never occur to you to question yourself – ‘say, maybe this technique isn’t the best way to go about this, perhaps there’s a better way’? I’ve been keeping and breeding monitors for a few years and I think they’re wonderful animals, so I hate it when I see an activity that I would define as abuse. Putting monitors in deep water and leaving them to struggle until they’re exhausted is abuse. If you did that to puppies instead of reptiles, the animal protection agencies would be busting down your doors pronto. Unfortunately, reptiles don't get the same level of protection.
So, am I really some insane ogre that just wants to see you burn for no particular reason or do I have a valid point to make about your ‘techniques’? Am I really against training? Am I really against people having calm monitors (I hate the word 'tame') or do I really think monitors need to be wild and untractable?
To quote you:
“I see you write rather clearly and spell rather well.
Therefore i must assume reading comprehension is not your problem.”
Let's see what I actually said. Here’s a link to a similar thread on another forum, in which you tried to push your theories, but I presented the evidence of your drown/save ‘taming’ technique:
Since I know time is limited and that link is very lengthy, I’ll summarise my feelings on this whole thing:
1. Every few months, some newbie appears on a monitor forum with a great new ‘technique’ for training or taming their monitors, thinking they’ve completely rocked the monitor world. You haven’t. Anyone that has kept monitors for a while (as in, beyond the two baby savannah monitors you currently own) learns that they usually tame down on their own as they learn to trust their keeper. Unfortunately, most first-time monitor owners try to handle them constantly to get them tame, as one would a snake. It doesn’t work that way with monitors. Those first time keepers think you’re a hero because their monitors haven’t tamed down, yet. I have raised a few extremely tame lace monitors, a species with a reputation of being far more ‘aggressive’ than savannah monitors, yet I have never made any active attempt to tame them. They just turned out that way from my dealing with them in a sensible manner. Unfortunately, you haven’t been keeping monitors long enough to learn this. Your monitors have become tame despite the drown/save technique, not because of it. If you had years of experience trying different things, then compared techniques, that’d be different. You’ve only ever had these two baby savannah monitors which are not even adults yet. If this were a science experiment, there'd be no 'control' group. Here’s a tip: Your monitors have become tame despite the drown/save technique, not because of it.
2. What I dislike about your drown/save technique is not that you may drown your monitor (I am sure you’ll scoop it up in time), it’s the unnecessary stress involved (exemplified by the monitor flipping over and going rigid, as described in your training log). The monitor doesn’t think you’re saving it, anyway, and for you to think as much is clear evidence of an enormous gap in your understanding of reptiles.
3. I am not against training monitors (as opposed to forced taming). They’re smart animals, why not test their abilities by teaching them to do things, as long as the animals aren't suffering in any way. The stimulation would probably even be good for them. I have a male lace monitor that comes when I call him and clap my hands – whoopee, they can be trained. It’s no big deal. Personally I wouldn’t train them to take food from my lips, but that’s me. If you want to train your monitors to take food from your lips, knock yourself out, they’re your lips. Don’t ever keep lace monitors, though, or you’d be dunceswithnolips in no time.
4. I'll repeat the friendly tip I gave on that other forum, from one reptile keeper to another: Allowing your monitors 24/7/365 free roam around your home will shorten their lives, unless your home is heated and humidified like an African savannah. As much as you think that you are doing the right thing by giving them plenty of space, long term they are better off being enclosed with the right conditions. I let my monitors free roam for a few hours each day, but they spend most of their time in an enclosure where they have access to basking lights, adequate humidity etc. Anyone that has spent enough time on monitor forums has seen several beloved pet monitors die mysteriously after a few years of 24/7/365 free roaming. Large monitors can live for 20-30 years or more, so they shouldn’t be dying after four or five years. The 'data' on skin temperature you provided in one of your posts doesn't say anything, other than that the monitor in question doesn't appear to be getting warm enough frequently enough for proper food digestion and metabolism. There's no timeline on that 'graph', anyway. Most monitors try to attain a core temperature of around 36C (96.8F) for digestion and will retain this temperature for much of their activity time. To give you an idea of how inaccurate skin temperature measurements are for assessing core temperatures, I've taken readings from my monitors shortly after basking and their skin temperature is sometimes over 45C (113F). That's above lethal temperature for monitors, so clearly their core temperature is well below that (in fact, most likely around 35-36C). How will the failure to achieve adequate temperatures affect your monitors? Long term, they'll have trouble metabolising certain important vitamins and minerals and will develop all sorts of symptoms which you'll have trouble relating to the cause until it's too late.
Joined: Jul 31, 2007 Posts: 5 Location: Miami/New York
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:59 am Post subject:
Wow...that was mind numbing to read _________________ 1.0.0 white arg. tegu
1.0.0 gold tegu
1.0.0 gehyra vorax "halamahera"
2.0.0 green iguanas
1.1.0 American pit bull terriers
Joined: May 16, 2007 Posts: 832 Location: Connecticut
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject:
The "drown/save technique"!! I've got to try that on my kids!! They sure could use some taming!!!! _________________ 1.1.16 Blue Tegus, 1.0 Red Tegu, 0.1 B&W Arg. Tegu
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa, 0.1 Dumeril Boa, 1.0 Suriname Boa
1.2 Ball Pythons, 1.0 Coastal Carpet Python
0.1 Cuban Rock Iguana
2.1.3 Bearded Dragons, 1.0 Veiled Chameleon, 0.0.1 Tokay Gecko
Yeah...I think I may use that method with my sisters. Maybe they'll learn to be well behaved kids like that monitor! ha _________________ 1.1.0 Bearded Dragons (Damien and Miss Priss)
0.1.0 Crested Geckos (Priscilla)
2.6.0 Leopard Gecko (Tonka, Rhaco, Hermine, Talia, Kalypso, Serendipity, Faith, and Sprinkles)
0.0.1 Henkeli Leaf Tail (Houdini)
0.1.0 Chacoan Black and White Tegu on her w
Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 972269 Location: Central Maine
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:57 pm Post subject:
mike wrote:
Ps- Rick, Varnyard, what happened to Rehabralphy? He went from a mod to banned?
Mike (RehabRalphy) was banned from our chatroom for drama between two different chatrooms in which he was a member, which led to him loosing his mod status here. Mike then started spreading false rumors that originated from the other chatroom and was banned from the forums too. Mike contacted me to discuss the issues and everything was resolved, but the ban must stand for a period of time. Mike knows this and understands this. He appologized and I accepted, so he will be back at some point soon.
If you have further questions on the subject of Mike's ban you can contact him directly for more specifics.
As far as the subject of this thread.. the poster was promoting a method of training that we just will not tolerate. We will not allow people to spread a "nearly kill the animal and then 'save it' to earn trust" method of taming.
the person who posted about drowning their lizard was banned from rtb not long ago, and i believe it was for pushing their psychotic views on taming no less.
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sorry guys